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M

markqf1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
683
Location
georgia
I'm surprised that not more of you guys (and gals) offer consulting services.
There is a market of people out there that would rather be taught one on one, than try to learn on their own.
It could be argued that this would be a cheaper and less dangerous way to learn, as well as profitable for some of you gurus.
My daughter just graduated from the University of Louisville.
I don't ever remember seeing any refining classes offered there.
Maybe chemistry covers it all.
Some of you guys, (you know who you are), could probably make good money teaching the art of refining on a private scale.

If I were you, I would be doing just that.

Just a thought.

Feel free to use this thread to your advantage.

Mark
 
Personally I would not teach 1 on 1 or even a class of people wanting to learn refining precious metals, I would however suggest they purchase Hokes book and Refining Precious Metals Wastes, then direct them to this GREAT forum.

A consultant in refining and chemistry would cater to large firms experiencing unique problems. I believe some of the they know who they ares have been there done that. Now retired, donate their expertise to this forum for free.

I was very fortunate in that I rented out some shop space to just such people ( Orex Labs ) and had the opportunity to visit the lab on a daily basis, the work they were doing was related the the Diamond discovery the the Canadian North.

The head of the lab Chris Sioux originally from Colombia and Hank Mexneir from Vancouver BC both very interesting men who travel the globe finding solutions for unique problems.

We on this forum are very lucky to have the combined expertise from some very knowledgeable people offered and at no cost to us.

I figure with the combined knowledge and experience we receive on this forum from they know who, would add up to perhaps 500 years of practical hands on experience...Now that is truly a gift. Thanks All

Best Regards
Gill Elmgren
 
There is something in human nature that compels us to change things. There is also a feeling that if information comes too easily it is probably incorrect. For these 2 reasons, the niche of consultant has evolved.

For all but the most sophisticated operations (and even those have been discussed here) the information presented here is all you would need to start and run a successful refining operation. Unfortunately setting things up in order to comply with the government agencies in the US who would rather see work go over seas makes some sort of consulting a necessity. Nobody has asked those kinds of questions in my tenure on the forum.

It's our human desire to change things that has gotten me the most work. I have posted here, as has Harold, Lasersteve, and GSP, methods for refining high grade gold in detail. I am quite sure some have followed those directions and as a result come back with more detailed questions which indicates to me they can follow directions specifically, learn from it and ask for more or better techniques. When I see that it makes me happy and it tells me it is worthwhile to post on this forum. Then there are the guys who can't follow the directions once without changing something......it's these guys who make money for consultants.

I do quite a bit of troubleshooting for large refineries and what I find most of the time is an operator has strayed from a tried and true method, customized it a bit, and it causes something down the line to go astray. Again, the human need to change things.

When I learned refining, I had to apply basic chemical principles and develop a technique, even Hoke's book was hard to find. There was no internet then and if a college library didn't have the book how was one to know it existed. As a result was a compilation of applying what was successful to maintain success, combined with hands on experience. The hands on is worth more than you can imagine. That is why I say get your experience using proven methods, don't stray, and you will succeed.

In the meantime my phone always rings and I constantly have to figure out what someone changed. Go figure!
 
4metals said:
In the meantime my phone always rings and I constantly have to figure out what someone changed. Go figure!
Click to expand...

You should subscribe to a 1-900 number, you can set the per minute charge rate your customer will pay.
 
My existing customers avail themselves of telephone support and I figure they've already paid me so I don't charge, and if you really don't know the details of someones setup it has to be seen.

Plus I'm really not much of a capitalist. If I were I wouldn't be writing here.
 
4metals said:
Then there are the guys who can't follow the directions once without changing something......it's these guys who make money for consultants.
Click to expand...
The individual you just described is the one that makes me regret trying to be helpful. They refuse to follow the simplest of instructions, making changes that fit their fancy, then they come back with a report that your suggestion didn't work, and you are left to wonder what could have possibly gone wrong when it has always worked to perfection when applied as directed.

I have a strict policy, one formed since being on this forum. I will not offer suggestions to ANYONE that inquires (privately) of more than one person. It has been my experience, since being on this forum, that some will send PM's to various contributors, seeking personal responses. It stands to reason that those of us that have experience will have developed work habits that may not be in keeping with those of others. For one, I refused to use plastic for any of my processes when I refined. The sole exception was the use of plastic buckets that could be incinerated when discarded, for my stock pot. I know that GSP used plastic routinely. He enjoyed success, but considering it was not my habit, I would suggest it not be used. The first conflict has already reared its ugly head. Better an individual choose one person and stay the course until they discover that the information they are receiving doesn't yield the desired results.

If a reader seeks advice from me, I expect they will ask me, and only me. If they prefer to ask others, that's fine, too, but they should seek information from one source, and one only. My logic is such that if they lack enough knowledge that they must ask the question, they will also lack enough wisdom to sort answers they receive, so they start picking and choosing concepts that better fit their expectations. They blend responses, then when things go south, they want answers, but they are not easy because they not only have made changes, but have not reported what they changed, so you have no clue. Been there, done that, and I don't like playing the game.

If a person has enough confidence in me to ask my advice, I expect they will follow it to the letter. If they can't do that, I'd prefer to not be involved. I respond to only issues with which I have experience, and am quick to report that I can't answer a question if I can't.

Harold

edit: reworded text so it made sense
 
4metals said:
Plus I'm really not much of a capitalist. If I were I wouldn't be writing here.
Click to expand...
Funny! I feel the same way, especially considering my limited knowledge. I'm here to help those that are struggling. That is far more important to me than any money I might make in pretending to be a consultant, a title I feel I could not justify commercially. You have to know when to hold 'em, and when to fold 'em.

4metals has the credentials to perform as a consultant. I do not.

Harold
 
markqf1:

We,the old boys of this wonderful Forum,have made good money..this is exactly the reason why we provide and share all our experiences...we prefer to give rather than receive.If you post your knowledge it could be feedback,enlarged and improved.Let me explain myself:

When I came here for first time (August 2008) I posted a process for silver recovery from button batteries..one year later I have received hundreds of e mails about questions and improvements...Let me talk about some improvements:

Using Fluoroboric acid (HBF4) instead of nitric acid,there are no fumes with this acid.This improvement was provided from a member in Hong Kong.

Newer batteries content less silver than the olders (20%-25% instead of 30%-35%).This improvement was provided from a member in USA.

A member from Australia provided me with a complete method for lithium recovery from button and rechargable batteries.

A member from Mexico showed me faked silver button cells.

Well,this is my personal experience.

Have a nice day.

Manuel
 
Thanks for the replies, Guys.
Maybe "consultant " wasn't the right word to use.

Perhaps "teacher or tutor" would have explained my remarks a little better.

I have enjoyed this free information on this forum, and the willingness of the many knowledgeable people here, to share their expertise and opinion, as I have stated before.
I hope to continue to learn from you all and thanks for continuing to contribute!

It is true that all of the refining information you should ever need to know, to get started, is here.
But I suspect it would be much cheaper and safer for the beginner to have a "personal trainer" to help digest it all and shorten the learning curve. This is one reason Steve's videos are popular here.

It was just a thought, as I have seen a couple of people here asking for these type services.
A similar service probably would have saved me time and money in the past as well.
Sometimes you can show somebody something in five minutes, that would take them a year to figure out on their own. :lol:

Harold, If anybody is qualified to teach someone to refine gold, ...it's you.

Mark
 
markqf1 said:
Harold, If anybody is qualified to teach someone to refine gold, ...it's you.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Mark, but I prefer to think of it as Hoke and me. Without her book, it is doubtful I would have ever achieved the degree of success I enjoyed. It is for that reason I have promoted it relentlessly.

Still, it's very comforting to know others have respect for my offerings. I thank you for that!

Harold
 
I read all of your posts Harold, for good reason.
You are a smart man.

When you see information and products for sale, it makes you want to hurry up and get going.
Shor, megan, and system III , to name a few. :oops:
Surely anyone can study and learn Hoke but, alot of people want the shortcut.

If you can save them money and time and make a few bucks in the process, ... It would be a good deal for all, saftey factors not withstanding.

I just see where some of you guys could provide a good and useful service cheaper than the "systems" that are out there.

Pardon my capitalistic veiw.

Mark
 
markqf1 said:
Pardon my capitalistic veiw.
Click to expand...
Heh! Frankly, I'm highly complimented by your views. It just never occurred to me to sell what little I know.

I agree, having the opportunity to see refining done is really the best way to learn. There are so many indicators that are not explained well, if at all. Seeing it done answers a lot of questions.

Early in my refining career, I had an inquiry in regards to teaching a person how to refine. I set the price prohibitively high (in my mind). While the individual in question lived out of the state, I didn't welcome any competition at the time. Image the look on my face when he accepted. My fee was $10,000, which I received in payment by check, along with some gold, plus some extended information on the processing of the platinum group of metals.

Harold
 
During the gold rush of 1980, a guy paid my boss $50,000 to learn how to refine. I was actually the one that spent a month with the guy training him.
 
I do quite a bit of work with small guys who want to set up shop and refine. I usually start with a small melt area and a refining room. (Most calls of late are just for karat refining, processing up to 2 kilo's a day of scrap.) I lay out what they will need, where to get it, and what the installation will entail. Then I come back when they tell me the setup is complete and they have all of the various items I asked them to acquire.

Now I start with teaching them how to use their melter to melt metals for processing, and how to burn (incinerate) their wastes and all general heat related aspects they will encounter. I also go into how to get a good sample of a melt in case they need it down the line.

Now it's into the refining room for hands on processing of karat scrap which they have melted and shotted into cornflakes. (to borrow Harold's term) We make fine gold by standard aqua regia processing, recover the chlorides and convert them, and then I alloy up some 18 karat high silver alloy so they can see how it behaves. (Or actually doesn't behave.) That's my segway into inquarting. Finally I cover the pretreatment of their waste acids.

I try and let them see the benefits of knowing the gold and silver contents of their lots before processing and the benefits of assaying and some have me teach them to assay as well. Generally assaying and processing PGM's (other than concentrating them) is not covered unless they specifically ask and even then I let them work at it for a while so they will better understand after having gotten the hang of refining from the first lessons.

Finally it's back to the melt room to melt fine and generate nice round casting grain or fine gold bars, as well as melting the silver from the refining process.

When I leave they have run at least 5 process lots starting with me right over their shoulder and finally with me watching without comment. (I do comment later, but often if they screw something up and don't see the error of their ways because I've spoken up before they screw up, they can't relate to it. Seeing the results of a screw up is often beneficial in the learning process. I provide numerous spreadsheets to help them with their process controls and metal accountability, as well as detailed cost accounting sheets.

Generally for a small shop, processing up to 2 kilo's a day I spend about 15 full days at the shop. My rate is $1000 a day plus expenses and the customers come away with a new career. Most call me once a week with questions for a month or two and I don't charge for that, and the majority come back to learn more about assaying, PGM's , alloying and silver refining.

Additional expenses come from regulatory agencies of different states as most require a state licenses professional engineer to obtain air permits and waste discharge permits. I work with these guys but can't control their rates.

It still amazes me that people can't do everything (or most of) what I've mentioned here from information on this forum so it's necessary to provide it for those who prefer to be tutored.

By the way Harold, credentials can be smoke and mirrors, hands on knowledge beats book learning every time. Refining is a marriage of science and art, from what I've read of your posting you read and learned the science (Hoke's book) and mastered the art.
 
4metals, I'd be interested if you knew anyone who does Miller on a decent scale. I know you're strictly an aqua regia man but I'm trending further and further away from that process, especially with the platinum group.

If you've got any experience with the Miller Process, please let me know. At the very least, I think I can trade a few techniques I know for some practical aspects on Miller's Chlorine Process.

Either way, send me a PM.
 
Wow, we went from Harolds 10K to GSP's 50K to 4Metals' 1K a day.

Sorry I asked!

I think I will stick to reading (Hoke) and what you guys post here on the forum. :lol:

Lou, sounds like there's something in the Miller process that wreaks of gas phase?

Unlike Wohlwill, 3n5 sounds good to me!

Mark
 
Most shop keepers who want to set up their own refinery are buying scrap over the counter. They own a shop and put out a shingle that says we buy gold, and sellers come in. In most areas, they are paying between 60 and 70 cents on the dollar for gold. Two kilos of scrap a day (10 14 &18K mix) at an average gold content of 50% puts their margins in the 2 1/2 to 3 million $ per year range.

Now if you can build a refinery for 25 to 30 K (soup to nuts), pay someone to teach you everything you need to do your job completely for another 15 K you have just spent under $50 K. That's 2% of what you will make in a year for the security of knowing you are getting all the metal back that you pay for. And you only pay it once. And your profits can climb from there, and your knowledge carries through with your growth.

If you can get the scrap, it is definitely a cost effective option. It's just a business decision which I give my clients the tools to make before they have to reach into their pockets.

Fortunately all of you who are reading this can get this information for free on this forum just for asking. But any businessman seeing the potential to gain more control over his or her business for 2% of a years income can see the value in pursuing the option.
 

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