Does anyone make a profit refining gold?
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I made a living for more than ten years, working strictly as a refiner, all with information from Hoke's book, plus research on processes that went beyond what she teaches.
You can make a living on refining, but you must address, at the bare minimum, the refining of silver, gold, platinum and palladium. They are all common to many alloys, both in jewelry and dentistry. You would be well advised to be able to retort mercury as well, assuming you received wastes from a dentist.
The big problem is gaining the confidence of these people. To approach them while you are in the learning phase of refining can prove to be a costly mistake when you accept their material and blow it by not recovering the values completely, or by providing end product that is not up to standards. If you gain a bad reputation at first, you likely will never be able to overcome the ramifications.
My advice is to learn refining well, then promote your skills. The best chance of making a profit is refining for jewelry manufacturers, who have an ongoing need for pure gold and silver, and generate considerable waste material. They not only become a source of material to process, but buyers of the end product as well. It's a closed loop that makes you a valuable asset to them, assuming you remain honest and do good work. Providing a jeweler gold that is contaminated can result in rejected castings and end up costing both you and the jeweler. You must be able to provide quality products if you expect to get and keep their business.
While I always encourage folks to process e scrap, the chance of making a living is slim, unless you can process in large volume, with minimal handling. The chance of doing so on a hobby basis is not good.
Harold
You can make a living on refining, but you must address, at the bare minimum, the refining of silver, gold, platinum and palladium. They are all common to many alloys, both in jewelry and dentistry. You would be well advised to be able to retort mercury as well, assuming you received wastes from a dentist.
The big problem is gaining the confidence of these people. To approach them while you are in the learning phase of refining can prove to be a costly mistake when you accept their material and blow it by not recovering the values completely, or by providing end product that is not up to standards. If you gain a bad reputation at first, you likely will never be able to overcome the ramifications.
My advice is to learn refining well, then promote your skills. The best chance of making a profit is refining for jewelry manufacturers, who have an ongoing need for pure gold and silver, and generate considerable waste material. They not only become a source of material to process, but buyers of the end product as well. It's a closed loop that makes you a valuable asset to them, assuming you remain honest and do good work. Providing a jeweler gold that is contaminated can result in rejected castings and end up costing both you and the jeweler. You must be able to provide quality products if you expect to get and keep their business.
While I always encourage folks to process e scrap, the chance of making a living is slim, unless you can process in large volume, with minimal handling. The chance of doing so on a hobby basis is not good.
Harold
great post. My intrest in refining is 50% hobby and 50% for profit. So far right now im thinking sources are E-scrap, placer gold, scrap jewelery (never know what you could find at a garage sale), and i also have dentist in the family.
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Capitalize on the dentist(s?). When you can process dental alloys with success, recovering all of the valuable elements, you will be able to process almost anything that comes along. Start with small lots, just a few dwts at a time. Read Hoke, and do as you're told. In the end, it will all be routine.
Your chance of making a living processing placer is not good. Anyone that recovers it in quantity will likely seek a large outlet to covert to cash quickly. It comes along, but not enough to make a living. If you rely on finding your own, it won't take you long to understand why it sells for more than $900/oz. Your very best chance of success is processing for the jewelry trade, bar none.
Harold
Your chance of making a living processing placer is not good. Anyone that recovers it in quantity will likely seek a large outlet to covert to cash quickly. It comes along, but not enough to make a living. If you rely on finding your own, it won't take you long to understand why it sells for more than $900/oz. Your very best chance of success is processing for the jewelry trade, bar none.
Harold
Harold is right on the placer gold.
The killer for a small refiner is not being able to certify and
stamp bullion or your end product. Also you would have to have
a heck of a bank account to buy customers gold.
Miners either want a certified product returned,or cash. They
don't want a product that has to be assayed before a real gold
buyer will touch it.
The killer for a small refiner is not being able to certify and
stamp bullion or your end product. Also you would have to have
a heck of a bank account to buy customers gold.
Miners either want a certified product returned,or cash. They
don't want a product that has to be assayed before a real gold
buyer will touch it.
Dental gold. Buffing dust, floor sweeps, filings, carpets, traps, etc. from jewelry mfgrs. and dental labs. Several types of scrap from platers. PM pastes and solder. All sorts of scrap from certain jet engines. Certain types of electronic scrap.
Almost any type of silver scrap.
If you sell to knowledgeable people, they'll recognize pure gold when they see it.
Almost any type of silver scrap.
If you sell to knowledgeable people, they'll recognize pure gold when they see it.
viacin
Well-known member
"The killer for a small refiner is not being able to certify and
stamp bullion or your end product."
Really?? Even if you have assay equiptment? Geez that's a total bummer, cuz no one wants to buy bullion on your word alone. I suppose you could make a large batch of gold at once, then send a small sample of that bath to be assayed by a company, get a certificate, and use it on the whole batch?
stamp bullion or your end product."
Really?? Even if you have assay equiptment? Geez that's a total bummer, cuz no one wants to buy bullion on your word alone. I suppose you could make a large batch of gold at once, then send a small sample of that bath to be assayed by a company, get a certificate, and use it on the whole batch?
Generally it's just easier to send the whole lot to the assayer and tel them how many milligrams to take and how the customer wants it analyzed.
If it's a big lot, get it umped.
This one goes out to GSP/Harold, any information on what's needed to (legally/officially) stamp a product as 9999 fine? Even if my analyses and my assayers' agree, I still am hesitant to stamp any ingot.
Oz made (by private communication) a very good point about silver bullion and his word has enough weight with me to seriously consider it--I'll probably be talking to GSP soon!
If it's a big lot, get it umped.
This one goes out to GSP/Harold, any information on what's needed to (legally/officially) stamp a product as 9999 fine? Even if my analyses and my assayers' agree, I still am hesitant to stamp any ingot.
Oz made (by private communication) a very good point about silver bullion and his word has enough weight with me to seriously consider it--I'll probably be talking to GSP soon!
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I am unaware of any regulations pertaining to anyone marking the fineness on precious metals. I would assume that it should be proper, or err on the side of being marked too low.
When I refined, I marked my material in such a way that I had a little wiggle room. I never insinuated that my gold was four 9's, just that it would meet, or exceed, the industry standard, which is 9995.
When I marked ingots, I simply marked them as fine gold.
I marked silver to 3 places, insuring that I did not misrepresent my purity.
Depending on one's customer base, and how values are sold, it isn't important to have an assay. If, through performance, you become accepted, the average customer will not have an issue with the quality (fineness) of your metals. Note that I am not alluding to metals that are refined to a high state of purity, just run of the mill metals used in every-day industry.
In all my years of refining, none of my customers challenged my purity, although one did have one delivery assayed. I represented my gold as being 9995 fine. According to him, the assay found it to be 9997. I think you'll find that no one will complain if your quality is better than it is represented to be.
Do keep in mind, I tried to fly under the radar, and keep a low profile. I provided excellent quality without a great deal of fanfare. Your objective may be different.
Harold
When I refined, I marked my material in such a way that I had a little wiggle room. I never insinuated that my gold was four 9's, just that it would meet, or exceed, the industry standard, which is 9995.
When I marked ingots, I simply marked them as fine gold.
I marked silver to 3 places, insuring that I did not misrepresent my purity.
Depending on one's customer base, and how values are sold, it isn't important to have an assay. If, through performance, you become accepted, the average customer will not have an issue with the quality (fineness) of your metals. Note that I am not alluding to metals that are refined to a high state of purity, just run of the mill metals used in every-day industry.
In all my years of refining, none of my customers challenged my purity, although one did have one delivery assayed. I represented my gold as being 9995 fine. According to him, the assay found it to be 9997. I think you'll find that no one will complain if your quality is better than it is represented to be.
Do keep in mind, I tried to fly under the radar, and keep a low profile. I provided excellent quality without a great deal of fanfare. Your objective may be different.
Harold
NobleMetalsRecovery
Well-known member
I sell circuit boards and the gold I refine to the same (undisclosed) contact. MY buyer has enough experience with gold refining to purchase my nuggets based on a visual inspection only.
He wants the nuggets to be as melted, no cleaning them up, and the nugget should have a small dimple in the center. This apparently indicates the approximate purity. I get paid about 97% of the current spot price. Am I doing good? Any comments?
He wants the nuggets to be as melted, no cleaning them up, and the nugget should have a small dimple in the center. This apparently indicates the approximate purity. I get paid about 97% of the current spot price. Am I doing good? Any comments?
viacin
Well-known member
Sell your nuggets on eBay. Not exactly flying under the radar anymore though, but gold bars sell for about $35/g. + S&H. There are a lot of would-be "investors" on there searching for a deal and never finding one. I have yet to see any gold sell for less than spot on eBay, and I watched for several weeks. The worse the economy, the higher the bids go. I think it's a "The world is ending" kinda thing for some people.
Speaking of which harold, how would you feel about stamping gold bars and selling to the general public (such as ebay auctions, not a storefront)? I've only seen one non-minted gold bar on there, and it went for the same price, about $35/g. He had ".999% Fine" stamped on it himself.
LoL, I'm just afraid the dreaded black suburbans will pull up one day and take all my gold, and me to jail...and then the epa would have a reason to fine me for the chemicals. Triple Wammy.
Speaking of which harold, how would you feel about stamping gold bars and selling to the general public (such as ebay auctions, not a storefront)? I've only seen one non-minted gold bar on there, and it went for the same price, about $35/g. He had ".999% Fine" stamped on it himself.
LoL, I'm just afraid the dreaded black suburbans will pull up one day and take all my gold, and me to jail...and then the epa would have a reason to fine me for the chemicals. Triple Wammy.
NobleMetalsRecovery
Well-known member
I used to sell my gold on eBay, a few years ago. Back then I would get between 5% over and 5% under spot. With eBay fees, that's not as good as what I get now selling it privately, unless I sell it for spot or better, got to factor in the eBay fees.
But, if now it's bringing better than spot (hopefully enought to cover the eBay fees) then eBay would seem like the way to go.
But, if now it's bringing better than spot (hopefully enought to cover the eBay fees) then eBay would seem like the way to go.
Noxx
Well-known member
Steve,
Could I ask you one question ?
Do you sell your gold in bars, beads, flakes or shot ?
Don't fear the competition, I'm in Quebec
Thank You
Could I ask you one question ?
Do you sell your gold in bars, beads, flakes or shot ?
Don't fear the competition, I'm in Quebec
Thank You
viacin
Well-known member
I just checked ebay, there are 4 1g gold bars ending withing the hour, the lowest is $36, the highest is $37.77 Plus, these guys are charging $5 s&h (the $37.77 is free shipping however), so you know they're making $1-$2 there. That's $1174.64/oz!
Gold spot at this very moment is $26.86/g. That's $10.91 above spot! Thats over 40% above spot! Is my math wrong? that seems insane.
$37.77 - $26.86 = $10.91 / 26.86 = .4061%!!
Q: Why aren't we all on ebay selling our gold?????
Eaby fee's have went through the roof, but wow, 40% above spot should pay for them and then some.
Gold spot at this very moment is $26.86/g. That's $10.91 above spot! Thats over 40% above spot! Is my math wrong? that seems insane.
$37.77 - $26.86 = $10.91 / 26.86 = .4061%!!
Q: Why aren't we all on ebay selling our gold?????
Eaby fee's have went through the roof, but wow, 40% above spot should pay for them and then some.
Noxx
Well-known member
Don't forget that the gold bars you see are from certified assayers.
Also, there's a large premium on 1 gram gold bars.
Also, there's a large premium on 1 gram gold bars.
viacin
Well-known member
lol now that leads to a good question, isn't there one of those cheapo online only asser classes that you can take to become certified? I'm sure anyone that's been in this hobby can find, or already has the knowledge to assay, so getting a certificate could only make them that much richer.
Or is certified assaying something that's controlled and kept up with since it could really give any schmuch the ability to certify tons of impure gold as pure.
Or is certified assaying something that's controlled and kept up with since it could really give any schmuch the ability to certify tons of impure gold as pure.
Noxx
Well-known member
I don't know who's in right to deliver such certificated but I'm sure they're hard to obtain. Assayers have to follow strict rules and often visited by inspectors.
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The dimple you speak of, the pipe, is a good indicator of fine gold. Gold that is contaminated won't dimple---it freezes instead, and generally has a strange pattern on the surface, along with oxides. Your buyer is very much in tune with reality.Noble Metals Recovery said:
The lack of the pipe isn't necessarily a sign that gold isn't pure. If a person masters the casting process, and controls cooling, it's very possible to create ingots that have no pipe.
I insured that mine didn't have one, which involved heating the ingot once poured, allowing it to cool from the bottom, up, not from the sides, in. By doing so, the pipe doesn't form. My problem was heating it fast enough to prevent the center from being considerably lower than the entire ingot, which was caused by cooling from the edges in as well as from the bottom, up. I eliminated the pipe entirely, but couldn't keep the ingot flat.
There's no reason why a perfectly flat ingot can't be cast, assuming the entire cooling process is well controlled. A process I never quite mastered. I cast very few ingots.
Harold
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When you're in tune with refining, and know that your quality is good, I see nothing wrong with stamping a bar----just do it conservatively.viacin said:
One of my customers delivered a small button that he wanted melted and included in an ingot I cast for him. The button was marked 4 9's, but it was obvious it wasn't pure. It had a rosy color that concerned me. I told him the only way I'd include the gold was if I refined it first. Turned out it was contaminated with platinum, so my observation was correct.
As far as marking bars that get put on the market, I did exactly that. The picture, below, represents five bars that I cast that I know ended up on the market. As I said, I marked conservatively. Note that they say Fine Gold, and do not represent a given fineness. In essence, the claim is that the gold is pure, not intentionally alloyed. It would be hard to hang a person for dishonesty under that particular claim.
Note that the ingots in the picture were marked on the bottom, not the top. By doing so, I had a flat surface to mark. It's difficult to mark one that tapers, which mine did.
Harold
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viacin
Well-known member
I'm drooling over those bars. good work! I feel much more confident stamping my bars now.
BTW, who made your custom stamp?
BTW, who made your custom stamp?
