Gold and AR

[Lonnie]

Hello

I finally got my book so I hope I'm not asking stupid questions .

Thanks to everyones help the cementing silver is going great . I'm at a point where I need to break from silver and deal with clean up of things getting to much stuff setting around that needs properly disposed of . Waiting on some solder so I can make a testing solution so untill I get it thats on hold .

If I did this right this is silver I cemented out so far . The reason for two jars is some of the contacts were slightly magnetic so I kept them seperated .

Reading Hokes book I'm learning plenty and trying to put a few things she mentions into use so I'm doing some test . My test aren't trying to re-invent the wheel they are geared towards finding the right process to proceed with .

I have quite a bit of gold to play with and thought I'd start with the lesser quality stuff first . That would be 5 .55 troy ounce of this chain I thought was gold filed . Recient test seem to indacate it's a better material than I first thought .

I took two 0.5 gram samples and applied red heat to one trying to melt it and couln't with the little map gas torch . Looking with a loup I could see that the gold kinda pooled in spots leaving a grey/black material exposed .

I placed both 0.5 samples into a test tube and covered with just a little AR .

The sample I roasted turned yellow green fast in AR . The grey/black material was gone fast leaving only a few nugets of gold colored material . Thats the tube on the left . In about 5 more minutes the roasted sample had turned yellowish just like the other sample . To this point no heat has been applied it was done outside and it's 33 degrees today .

I think the green I seen at first is nickle simply because I couldn't melt it into a bead and the chain is slightly magnetic . I do think they is silver in the mix as I seen a grey material in the bottom of the tube that Hoke explains is most likley AgCl from the reaction with the acid .

This leave me wondering if I wouldn't be best to roast the material and then use the acid Hoke mentions to remove metal fragments in jewelers scrap . Just reading it once I'll have to refer back to it and make certain the type but I'm thinking she said sulfuric to remove metal prior to proceeding with AR .

This leaves me a question .
1 ) If I did use that process can I recover any silver later ? The AR seems to be working good but with the expence of good nitric I'd prefer using an acid I can get for free to do half the work then proceed with AR .

2 ) I have some old storm precipitant . Will this be ok for droping gold or should I buy some fresh ? Yea I'll buy the pure chemical not shores storm stuff I just can't remember the name of it off the top of my head . I couldn't spell it if I could but it's the same stuff anyhow .

3 ) Hoke advises to start with about a 50 penny weight batch and expand as you learn what your doing . Does this sound about right for a new guys first time doing this ?

I hope I haven't asked any stupid questions . Thanks for any help or advise doing this .

Lonnie

 

[qst42know]

Many gold plated chains are stainless steel base metal. Which may explain why you weren't able to melt it.

Strip the gold in a cell.

 

[goldenchild]

Lonnie,

In your first picture with the jar on the right you did an excellent job of rinsing and filtering your silver! That should come out to be very pure silver.

Those chains look gold plated but if you're sure they are gold filled you may want to consider digesting them in nitric. This will leave golden shells behind ready for AR digestion. And if silver is indeed the base metal you can proceed with what you obviously already do well. Cement it out with copper. lasersteve has an excellent dvd that shows you how to refine gold filled scrap from a-z. I recommend it.

 

[Lonnie]

qst42know

I may just want to consider this cell as nitric was the first thing I tried and man oh man did I end up with a mess . At first in a test tube with 0.5 grams it looked great in no time I had gold floating and what looked like a silver green solution .

It looked so good I took 10.3 grams I had cut in small pieces and dumped them in a canning jar . Poured the test tube contints into the jar and added 5 ml extra nitric and placed them in my water bath cooker . Then commenced cutting up the rest of the chain .

I let this cook for a couple hours and when I returned I had a silver looking solution but could only see a orange rust looking material settled in the bottom . My gold was there on bottom of course but covered and mixed with this orange looking rust stuff .

I just about have it cleaned up dag gum the work . Been flooding with water and shaking . Let the gold settle and draw off rusty water . Too much work but it does look like a good amount of gold can be recovered . So now I have most the gold in about 100ml of water with just a little trash mixed in . But I have 3 gallons of rusty looking water I'm boiling down to a pint now . I have free gas and it's nice today so boiling it down doesn't cost me anything . I will look into and think about this cell because this method isn't working .


goldenchild

Thanks I'm certainly trying to do things right . It will all be melted and run through a silver cell before I'm finished with things . LOL nitric was my first thought but thats not the solution .

I'm hoping the contaminants you see in the first pic is gold but my luck it will be brass or some other stuff . That came from silver contacts that still had a nice gold colored solder on them and they were slightly magnetic so I kept them seperated . While dijesting them as the nitric played out I'd take tweezers and pull out a contact and check it out .

Anyhow as the nitric digested the contacts it kinda left humps where the heaviest solder was . Kinda a grey / black looking stuff that looked like a sponge it had holes ate throughout these spots . Anyhow hoping it's a good contaminant it's all in the jar with the silver . Of course I'm hoping to end up with a black mud after running it through the silver cell .

I'm not sure if it's plated or gold filled . I was thinking GF simply because the gold layer appeared to go to deep into the chain to be a thin plate . So I'm really not sure what it is but from the 10.8 grams I added nitric to it looks like they could be 2 grams of gold . Of course it would be carret gold of somekind not pure gold .

I'm really considering this cell and will probably buy the DVD as I do need the information . This 5.55 troy ounce of material will more than pay for the information and I need to get some pure gold products in the worse way so I can hopfully start trading for jewelers scrap to refine . I have the draw plates and molds all I really need to be able to supply a jeweler is the material and a roller of somekind . Oh yea a way to make shot will also be needed . I'm hoping to trade finish products they can use on somekind of percentage bases for their scrap .

Anyhow thanks for the suggestions this cell seems like it may just be the easiest way .

btw it's not silver alloyed with this material . It sure makes a solution that looks like silver but no silver will cement out of it .

Lonnie

 

[Lonnie]

Sheesh I'm not sure what makes me say things wrong !! I know I should have said the base metal was not silver instead of saying it's not alloyed with silver I do know the difference . I'm working on trying to be precise and need to get my son to put me a spell check on this thing also .

I finally got the gold cleaned up and in a test tube for safe storage . Going to try some small experiments with this rust stuff and see if I can get something to take the stuff up into solution . Nitric would be fast and easy if I can just find a fast easy way to remove the orange crud from the mix .

I think my next test will be with this orange crud and sulfuric . If a weak acid would take it up so I could filter it off the gold it would be a fast and easy job and I'd be ready for the AR . It would sure make things easy enough that it would be well worth trying to figure out .

 

[goldenchild]

Lonnie,

I don't think the "orange crud" will be an obstacle. It sounds like the orange material is just copper that plated out of solution. You mentioned you put 10.3 grams of scrap in the test tube and put 5ml of nitric in with it. The 5ml wouldn't be enough to digest that amount of scrap even if the scrap's base metal was silver. Sounds like you just needed to add more water and nitric and complete the digestion.

 

[Lonnie]

goldenchild

Sorry for the confusion I only put 0.5 grams in the test tube with about 3 ml of HNO3 . I had 10.3 grams more of the same material and thats what I placed in the canning jar and then dumped the test tube contints into it also making a total of 10.8 grams .

Still true the 8 ml or so wouldn't complete the reaction but it did dissolve enough to make a mess of things . I'm guessing I still had at least half the material left when the HNO3 played out .

I figured it out and it only proves what several say in here and thats keep everything seperate . When the lady approached me about buying that chain she had 5 different ones . I think they were the gold by the inch deal . Anyhow making a long story short she gave me about an inch of all 5 so I could go test them a little .

I ended up only buying 2 from her but kept the small samples she gave me . It was one of those that had something in it that made this orange rust looking stuff . When I started playing with the chain I chopped up all the samples and mixed them .

I got to thinking about that and tried a small amount of both chains and lucked up no rusty looking crud . I have most of it in a jar ready for AR . It sure looks like a big pile but it can't weight much it floats .

I have a good hand full of pins and stuff I removed from computers and so on and started working on them also today . I'd sure like to get an ounce or 1.5 ounce together but will never do it with this kinda stuff .

Oh well I'll do all the scrappy junk first and then start working on rings and stuff I have . I have enough stuff like that to make a pure ounce . If I can learn a little about what I'm doing with the low quality stuff and get a few extra grams also would be cool . Kinda get a feel for it without messing with the kt gold to start out . I'll have to process it eventually though if I'm gonna get a small hand full of stuff to try and start trading with .

I'm having a heck of a time with silver . I know I'm new but never seen anything like this . I put on a big batch of the contacts about 800 grams . Had 3 jars going and as they worked off the HNO3 I'd pour it off into a jug and top the jars off .

When I started cementing silver I used 3 qt jars and it was making the nicest looking silver looked like diamonds falling to the bottom . All of a sudden it started cementing some very fine black crap . I'm thinking I somehow let some turn to AgCl .

To be honest I have no idea if I goofed up and made AgCl or what happened . It's easy enough to seperate but takes time . That silver falls fast and this takes 2 hours to settle . A very fine grey / black stuff but at least that makes it easy to seperate .

I'll get it seperated and try the method using lye to see if it will turn back to metalic silver . If it will I'll turn it all back . If not I'll wash it and melt some and see what it is .

Lonnie

 

[butcher]

Cemented silver will look like pepper, from silver disolved in nitric (AgNO3), cemented out of solution with copper.

To check and see if you have chloride in a solution, make up some silver nitrate, use this to test your solution, if all you have is silver nitrate with both mixtures no reaction, if chloride's then you will see white cloud or precipitant of silver chloride.

I fail to see why you would use lye sugar on cemented silver from AgNO3 solution, testing is your eyes, not guessing and second guessing yourself.

 

[Lonnie]

butcher

Well I probably dont explain myself good enough . Thats probably the biggest reason for mis understandings . I'm not doubting your knowledge or that (AgNO3) isn't the proper way to describe silver in solution with nitric . But not being a chemist or knowing how these formulas work out I"ll just call it a HNO3 solution with silver in it . I realise that it changes after going through a reaction but figure it's better to call it what i know it is rather than pretending to know something I do not know .

You can see a pic of the silver I've cemented out but it really doesn't remind me of pepper ( at least not to me ) . Most of what I've done so far has made a sparkling silver colored substance thats been very easy to wash .

This last batch started out doing just like all batches prior to it making a nice sparkling silver color material . Then about half way through the process of cementation it just started cementing a black crap thats not as easy to wash as I thought it would be .

This black substance is the ONLY stuff I was going to try anything with I know what to do with the silver . I certainly wouldn't throw the black stuff away as it did cement out with copper so maybe it has some value maybe not .

. I melted a small sample of the silver I cemented and washed and it sure looks like silver to me . This black stuff doesn't look like silver unless I somehow messed up and changed it . ( But I think I know what it has to be )

I really dont think it's AgCl as all that I have started out white turning purple and this stuff just cemented out black . But not being a chemist thats all I could figure I might have made it into .

About all I could say that might help someone more experienced to identify it is when you wash it it has a silvery/black sheen to it . If you ever seen thousands of shad minnows swimming in river water the silver sheen you see as they turn and change directions is exactly what it reminds me of . I couldn't call it pepper looking though I'd describe it more like silver with oil or something combind with it .

I know one thing I've washed on it so much I'm about to set it on the shelf and start another big batch . Making certain I filter everything . Thats about what I figure I must have done . I had three qt jars going and was filtering into 3 more qt jars then topping the jars with the contacts back off sending them back to the water bath with more nitric .

Filtering and dumping the filtered HNO3 into a jug for cementation later . All I can figure is I dumped in a jar that wasn't filtered good . I had 2 jugs and I think when I started cementing from the second jug I ran into the black crud .

I just wish I had it cleaned though I have half a qt jar of silver with this black stuff in it I can't get washed out . I'll get it out if I have to melt and digest it again but beginning to think water isn't going to do it .

Think I'll try putting a small dab in a tube and acidfy it . See if the black cant be removed that way . Hey if you have any idea how to clean it easy I'm all ears just tell me cause I'd really like to have this jar clean .

 

[Lonnie]

Butcher

" To check and see if you have chloride in a solution, make up some silver nitrate, use this to test your solution, if all you have is silver nitrate with both mixtures no reaction, if chloride's then you will see white cloud or precipitant of silver chloride. "

Why would i want to make silver nitrate ??

A single drop of brick acid will tell me if AgCl is in solution making the same white cloud . Besides this black stuff isn't in solution it cemented out with the silver .

You know though I haven't been able to cement all the silver out on any batch so far . After I cement out what I can adding brick acid will always get the rest out for me . Or I guess it's all out my testing stuff isn't here yet .

Even this gold chain I couldn't get a drop of silver to cement out not the first drop . Add brick acid and bingo AgCl setting on the bottom in no time . So the base metal was at least alloyed with silver .

My question is - Why wouldn't the silver cement out ? Could it be that when it's in a solution combined with some elements it wouldn't react the same ? I'm now questioning just what this orange rust looking stuff is . I never did do the test with it I didn't have to but will be testing it some today .

First I have to get it out of the bottom of the jug it's in and dry it . Then I'm going to put a sample in a test tube with AR and hope it turns a yellow / gold color .

 

[Oz]

Even this gold chain I couldn't get a drop of silver to cement out not the first drop . Add brick acid and bingo AgCl setting on the bottom in no time . So the base metal was at least alloyed with silver .

My question is - Why wouldn't the silver cement out ? Could it be that when it's in a solution combined with some elements it wouldn't react the same?

Lonnie,

If you were trying to cement values out of this nitric solution on copper buss bar and nothing cemented, I would wager you have no silver. If you added HCl (?brick acid?) to this solution and got a white/grey precipitate it is most likely lead chloride. Put some of your white precipitate in a glass jar with some water and set it outside in the sun for the day. If it is silver chloride it will turn dark purple/black. If lead chloride, the color will not change.

 

[wrecker45]

Lonnie. if it is inch of gold. it is called layered gold. they make a fine thread of gold and wrap it around a jewlers core. the jewlers core is brass with a small amount of nickel. i still have some reels from when i use to sell it...Jim

 

[Harold_V]

What color was the solution from which you got the black material? That's generally a sign of values---often platinum or palladium. Platinum in the presence of silver will dissolve in nitric, and palladium has no problems dissolving in nitric whatsoever. If your solution had a green tint, don't even think of trying to wash out the black, which may well be worth more than the silver. After proper washing (to eliminate traces of copper in solution), it should be melted, and an anode cast. You'd recover the values from the slimes of a silver parting cell.

Harold