Gold plated Tungsten bars?

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hyderconsulting

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2007
Messages
95
Location
Cleveland, Tennessee
I've been finding more bits and pieces of the story or rumor on the internet that a significant number of counterfeit gold bars have been turning up in a few well known vaults belonging to governments and banks. The bars are 400 ounce gold plated tungsten ingots. As a result of this (and to be expected) there has been a lot of hurried assays and inspections to prove the validity what is actually in some of these vaults in the way of real gold. I also read that the Chinese government got stuck with some of the counterfeits and the origin may have been Chinese counterfeiters. Has anyone else heard any more details of this story?
 
http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1258527840.php

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article14996.html

http://www.commodityonline.com/news/Tungsten-and-its-use-in-making-fake-gold-22919-3-1.html
 
This is an inordinately difficult fraud to execute for the following reasons:

1. making a solid tungsten bar the size of good delivery bar would be hugely expensive
2. tungsten has the highest of all melting points for a metal, (so if one wants the theoretical density of 19,3 g/cc, one must cast it; good luck melting more than a few grams!!!)
3. Numbers 1 and 2 said, for it to be done cost effectively, one must use powder metallurgy and sinter the tungsten. This will have a lower density (usually 16-18 g/cc, easily discernible).
4. Plating tungsten is not easily done. It has an intractable oxide coat that is difficult to remove before plating.

If one were to be truly successful, one would have to accept less of a return. It'd be easier to make a 24K gold "coffin", perhaps half the weight, and then snugly fit a piece of tungsten in there. It's a pretty clever idea though, since it is rare that a good delivery bar makes it to the crucible.
 
Lou said:
This is an inordinately difficult fraud to execute for the following reasons:

1. making a solid tungsten bar the size of good delivery bar would be hugely expensive
2. tungsten has the highest of all melting points for a metal, (so if one wants the theoretical density of 19,3 g/cc, one must cast it; good luck melting more than a few grams!!!)
3. Numbers 1 and 2 said, for it to be done cost effectively, one must use powder metallurgy and sinter the tungsten. This will have a lower density (usually 16-18 g/cc, easily discernible).
4. Plating tungsten is not easily done. It has an intractable oxide coat that is difficult to remove before plating.

If one were to be truly successful, one would have to accept less of a return. It'd be easier to make a 24K gold "coffin", perhaps half the weight, and then snugly fit a piece of tungsten in there. It's a pretty clever idea though, since it is rare that a good delivery bar makes it to the crucible.

Or a pressed slug of powdered W. That's a lot easier to do.

As far as plating goes, there are few solit materials that cant be plated in one way or another. Look at circuit board. Once you have a copper coat.....
 
Since the story about the fake gold tungsten bars surfaced awhile back, I have been skeptical. I see that Lou has similar feelings about this and I agree with all he said.

The highest density I've found on the internet, for anything fabricated from any form of tungsten, is 18.75. The difference between this and the 19.3 of gold is not that great, when it comes to measuring the density. If the bar weighed 400 oz (12,440 grams - 27.4#), the difference in the weight in water, between densities of 18.75 and 19.3, would only be .6 oz - about 18 grams. However, Sartorious, Mettler, and other companies make scales that will weigh 35 kg and have a readability of .1 grams. So, with a little jury-rigging, these could easily be used to determine the density.

The thing that bothers me the most is the appearance. The only thing that looks like a cast gold bar is a cast gold bar, with it's ripples, depressions, minor blemishes, etc. No other metal I've ever seen, when cast into a bar, has the surface appearance of a cast gold bar. Even if tungsten could be cast, the surface would surely look nothing like gold. If the surface were machined, it wouldn't resemble a cast gold bar at all.

Another problem is that the color and the variation of shine of a cast bar is different than that of a gold plated bar - just compare the color and appearance of a pure gold bead with a gold plated article. The best way to see color differences on shiny objects is to cover them with Kleenex and then wet the Kleenex with a few drops of water.

Anyone that has worked around pure gold bars would surely be able to tell the difference, visually. I can see no possibility that the appearance could be duplicated with a gold plated tungsten bar. I don't doubt that the gold plated tungsten bars existed. However, whoever accepted them was stupid or inexperienced or both. They also could have been involved in the scam.

I agree with Lou about the difficulty of plating on tungsten. If you look on the internet, you'll find cycles for it. All that I found, however, required a chrome strike first, followed by - nickel strike, nickel plate, gold plate. I would think the nickel would be attracted by a strong magnet. I found none for gold applied directly to the tungsten. Plating on molybdenum is as difficult as plating on tungsten, for the same reasons. Many years ago, I refined a drum or two of moly disks, about 2" in diameter, that were heavily gold plated. They came out of some type of rectifier, where they were arranged in stacks.

Chris
 
a thought, what if thet hollow out insert tugsten bar cast back gold in voids and top of cut polish? would banks used specific gravity to test each bar, well maybe now they will.

I hope them crooks get theirs.
 
There is a rather strict chain of custody on “good delivery bars”, and that chain is considered broken once it leaves a sovereign nations hands which means it then requires an assay once again.

The only other possible perpetrator would be a very large refiner that is on the list to provide good delivery bars (there are few that get there).

If indeed this has happened I would think that it is more likely that a government perpetrated the deception than a refinery that is dependent on moving bulk product to make a living.
 
whos the con artist?
are governments taking gold making fakes?
are people filling government mints with fake gold?
is an authur making money writing conspirasy theory's about governments?
who knows?
is there another source for this information?
or is this author Rob kirby the only one who knows?

http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/kirby/2009/0529.html
https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?p=842479
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rob+kirby+gold&start=40&sa=N
 
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