How do you know if AP solution is saturated?

[bhilton]

I have been letting 3 parts hcl 31.45% and 1 part 3% h2o2 do its magic with a bunch of gold fingers for the last 24 hours. No bubbler, but I am stirring and agitating it regularly.

Question 1, I’m wondering if and or when it makes sense to filter off some (not all) of the solution and adding more hcl? Or, as some say, should I just add more hcl to the existing solution?

Question 2, Even if the AP solution is not saturated with copper and other trace metals, does adding a little hcl each day improve performance of the copper2 chlorides job of dissolving base metals?


I have lots of gold foils in the solution now, but I would say 3/4 of the fingers are still attached.

Thank you!

Bill

 

[Yggdrasil]

I have been letting 3 parts hcl 31.45% and 1 part 3% h2o2 do its magic with a bunch of gold fingers for the last 24 hours. No bubbler, but I am stirring and agitating it regularly.

Question 1, I’m wondering if and or when it makes sense to filter off some (not all) of the solution and adding more hcl? Or, as some say, should I just add more hcl to the existing solution?

Question 2, Even if the AP solution is not saturated with copper and other trace metals, does adding a little hcl each day improve performance of the copper2 chlorides job of dissolving base metals?


I have lots of gold foils in the solution now, but I would say 3/4 of the fingers are still attached.

Thank you!

Bill

The money for an air bubbler will pay for itself very fast, Peroxide is expensive and may dissolve some of your Gold.
It will also prolong the life of the solution.
Add a bit of HCl now and then.

 

[bhilton]

The money for an air bubbler will pay for itself very fast, Peroxide is expensive and may dissolve some of your Gold.
It will also prolong the life of the solution.
Add a bit of HCl now and then.

Thank you!

If I get worried some gold is dissolved, after all fingers are processed, could I add a little raw copper to the solution and give it more time to push any dissolved gold out?

 

[Martijn]

Thank you!

If I get worried some gold is dissolved, after all fingers are processed, could I add a little raw copper to the solution and give it more time to push any dissolved gold out?

Once those still attached foils are loose, the gold in solution will have cemented out. Any traces will be caught in the next batch.
Stop peroxide addittions and use a bubbler as said.
Only add HCl when white copper 1 chloride salt is forming. If air does not dissolve it.

 

[bhilton]

Once those still attached foils are loose, the gold in solution will have cemented out. Any traces will be caught in the next batch.
Stop peroxide addittions and use a bubbler as said.
Only add HCl when white copper 1 chloride salt is forming. If air does not dissolve it.

Perfect, thank you.

I only added h2o2 at the start, never added any more, that’s what I learned reading all around the forums.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Perfect, thank you.

I only added h2o2 at the start, never added any more, that’s what I learned reading all around the forums.

That is not a process used or recommended here on this forum, there may be an old post or two around talking about that.
The most I have seen recommended here is a cap full in the beginning.

 

[bhilton]

That is not a process used or recommended here on this forum, there may be an old post or two around talking about that.
The most I have seen recommended here is a cap full in the beginning.

Yggdrasil, I hear you, thank you. The last forum post I had read before starting my AP batch was this one... I have learned the idea is minimal h2o2 but so many conflicting comments out there, I ended up doing nearly 3:1, then after 24 hours I added more HCL. I actually noticed some salts on the bottom and when I added more HCL, the salts cleared up. I also added a bubbler yesterday morning!

 

[Yggdrasil]

Yggdrasil, I hear you, thank you. The last forum post I had read before starting my AP batch was this one... I have learned the idea is minimal h2o2 but so many conflicting comments out there, I ended up doing nearly 3:1, then after 24 hours I added more HCL. I actually noticed some salts on the bottom and when I added more HCL, the salts cleared up. I also added a bubbler yesterday morning!

View attachment 61440

In stead of a screenshot why did you not post the link so we could see the development of the thread and age as well.
There has been a development here, the reason it is called AP is the in the beginning we actually used Peroxide.
Today we really do not recommend using Peroxide but rather corroded Copper.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Yggdrasil, I hear you, thank you. The last forum post I had read before starting my AP batch was this one... I have learned the idea is minimal h2o2 but so many conflicting comments out there, I ended up doing nearly 3:1, then after 24 hours I added more HCL. I actually noticed some salts on the bottom and when I added more HCL, the salts cleared up. I also added a bubbler yesterday morning!

View attachment 61440

Found it.
But this still says that there is no need for Peroxide if you follow the thread.

 

[bhilton]

Found it.
But this still says that there is no need for Peroxide if you follow the thread.

Sorry for not posting the link, I’ll post it next time.

Yea I see.

I will prep some copper for future batches.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Sorry for not posting the link, I’ll post it next time.

Yea I see.

I will prep some copper for future batches.

We should all read through a thread to get all the info and not stop when we find information we "like".

 

[Martijn]

Yggdrasil, I hear you, thank you. The last forum post I had read before starting my AP batch was this one... I have learned the idea is minimal h2o2 but so many conflicting comments out there, I ended up doing nearly 3:1, then after 24 hours I added more HCL. I actually noticed some salts on the bottom and when I added more HCL, the salts cleared up. I also added a bubbler yesterday morning!

View attachment 61440

Experienced chemists and -hobbyists can use these chemicals so that no problems will evolve.

Beginners do not understand the fine differences, pro's and con's of the use of a certain chemical. That's why we have beginners recipes and procedures to get to learn this craft.

The easiest way to learn is Acid Peroxide on trimmed clean contact fingers. The actual leach is Copper 2 Chloride.
The H2O2 can be used to start oxidizing some copper so it can attach to a chloride ion, creating a soluble salt that can dissolve copper, as HCl can not dissolve copper.
HCl + H2O2 is a refining tool, not a recovery tool. Most of the cases!!!

So this easiest way is proving to be quite complicated to explain to a beginner who wants to see some gold in his hand, yesterday.
Hence the much hated statement; stop and study!
Because you can not talk about details to someone that is not even up to speed on basic terminology. (extreme example)

We promote self study, everyone is doing things slightly different, so there is no one size fits all solution.

There are no exceptions to the rules, they are absolute, there are just a lot of similar yet quite different cases in this field and the fine details make a big difference.
So to every answer you can find something that may seem to debunk it, but that's your lack of understanding the fine details matter a lot.
Then you have evolution of techniques and practices. Miss Hoke, and many other scientists used to taste their salts... until it killed some of them, drove some of them mad, and others learned from that.

 

[bhilton]

Experienced chemists and -hobbyists can use these chemicals so that no problems will evolve.

Beginners do not understand the fine differences, pro's and con's of the use of a certain chemical. That's why we have beginners recipes and procedures to get to learn this craft.

The easiest way to learn is Acid Peroxide on trimmed clean contact fingers. The actual leach is Copper 2 Chloride.
The H2O2 can be used to start oxidizing some copper so it can attach to a chloride ion, creating a soluble salt that can dissolve copper, as HCl can not dissolve copper.
HCl + H2O2 is a refining tool, not a recovery tool. Most of the cases!!!

So this easiest way is proving to be quite complicated to explain to a beginner who wants to see some gold in his hand, yesterday.
Hence the much hated statement; stop and study!
Because you can not talk about details to someone that is not even up to speed on basic terminology. (extreme example)

We promote self study, everyone is doing things slightly different, so there is no one size fits all solution.

There are no exceptions to the rules, they are absolute, there are just a lot of similar yet quite different cases in this field and the fine details make a big difference.
So to every answer you can find something that may seem to debunk it, but that's your lack of understanding the fine details matter a lot.
Then you have evolution of techniques and practices. Miss Hoke, and many other scientists used to taste their salts... until it killed some of them, drove some of them mad, and others learned from that.

Thanks Martijn, yes I am very very aware that copper 2 chloride does the work and hcl does not... that concept is easy to understand.

I'm not trying to debunk anything nor was I trying to debate anything with Yggdrasil. I was only pointing out that I find the forum has a lot of information and while lots of methods, old and new exist, it is not always clear around here to determine which one the moderators recommend. I have no interest in proving any one method, I'm here to absorb information and learn. As they say, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat.

Is there a guide on the forum somewhere that is maintained by the moderators? Something like "Latest Method for Beginners, read this" - I used the forum search function and could not find one.

 

[bhilton]

We should all read through a thread to get all the info and not stop when we find information we "like".

Yggdrasil, are you assuming that I stopped when I found information I "liked"?

I don't do that... right now the only information I would "like" is a step by step guide recommended for beginners lol

 

[Yggdrasil]

Yggdrasil, are you assuming that I stopped when I found information I "liked"?

I don't do that... right now the only information I would "like" is a step by step guide recommended for beginners lol

We do not like the step by step method.
We prefer people to learn by studying until understanding.
If you give people a step by step its validty expires when ever something in the process change.

 

[AndrewSuperD]

I have also found that I either examine and experiment with my materials before starting any process, to determine the right process to use, or get really lucky and find some previous experience on the forum that almost matches my situation. I say almost because things are rarely equivalent from experience to experience due to differences in materials, environment, equipment, time, etc... Even gold finger recovery varies in output expectations because age, design, manufactures don’t use same application process, etc.

This is my favorite sentence though …. “There are no exceptions to the rules, they are absolute”. Thank you Martijn! Love it! This is referring to the rules of chemistry, no? They are absolute, and just like any tool, can be creatively manipulated to tease out the desired outcome, but the tool doesn’t change and you must know your toolset before you can achieve this advancement. This isn’t directed at anyone but myself … as I am only now realizing this reality and enjoying the moment.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I have also found that I either examine and experiment with my materials before starting any process, to determine the right process to use, or get really lucky and find some previous experience on the forum that almost matches my situation. I say almost because things are rarely equivalent from experience to experience due to differences in materials, environment, equipment, time, etc... Even gold finger recovery varies in output expectations because age, design, manufactures don’t use same application process, etc.

This is my favorite sentence though …. “There are no exceptions to the rules, they are absolute”. Thank you Martijn! Love it! This is referring to the rules of chemistry, no? They are absolute, and just like any tool, can be creatively manipulated to tease out the desired outcome, but the tool doesn’t change and you must know your toolset before you can achieve this advancement. This isn’t directed at anyone but myself … as I am only now realizing this reality and enjoying the moment.

I will say that first well regarding safety.
But for the rest, the "rules" are never the same, so it may fit there too

 

[manorman]

Thank you!

If I get worried some gold is dissolved, after all fingers are processed, could I add a little raw copper to the solution and give it more time to push any dissolved gold out?

Any gold that cements out will not look like gold foils, it will be a dark powder.