How to refine mining dore bar that content 15% silver by using aqua regia?

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Phoebe

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
5
Hi,

Apology for my English. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to learn.
I have received gold from mines. The weight is 37 Kgs and I want to refine this mining gold.

The Contents are:
Gold - 83%
Silver - 15%
Others - 2%

I am using aqua regia method. Now in aqua regia process, I'm facing a problem which is a layer of insoluble silver chloride protecting the gold from aqua regia. How can I dissolve the gold by using aqua regia? I will not opt for the option of using inquarting process because I have to use a lot of silver to form a 25% of gold content.

Thank you for your help.
 
You could use copper, rather than silver, for inquartation. You will, if you choose that option, use considerably more nitric acid to remove the copper, leaving a nearly pure gold.
 
High silver content above 6-7% in Gold dore does pose a problem in the aquaregia process as silver gets converted to silver chloride and once the gold granules get overlay (coating) of silver chloride, the further dissolution of such gold grains gets hindered unless a good mechanical stirring is used to keep silver chloride particles in suspension.

Instead of adding copper to bring down silver content by mass or adding silver for the inquartation process, the best would be to dissolve as much as possible in aquaregia reactor with good stirring, filter the gold chloride and wash the AgCl2 with hot water followed by an ammonical solution, and recover undissolved gold and then put it into aqauregia process to recover gold fully.
 
High silver content above 6-7% in Gold dore does pose a problem in the aquaregia process as silver gets converted to silver chloride and once the gold granules get overlay (coating) of silver chloride, the further dissolution of such gold grains gets hindered unless a good mechanical stirring is used to keep silver chloride particles in suspension.

Instead of adding copper to bring down silver content by mass or adding silver for the inquartation process, the best would be to dissolve as much as possible in aquaregia reactor with good stirring, filter the gold chloride and wash the AgCl2 with hot water followed by an ammonical solution, and recover undissolved gold and then put it into aqauregia process to recover gold fully.
He is proposing to add Copper not to decrease the Silver level but as a substitute for Silver in the inquarting.
 
The one great advantage of using silver to inquart is that it consumes less acid and with the amount of silver in the bar it will be a self sustaining by product and salable product once you have refined enough of the bars to be self sufficient.
Another way to process this material is to roll it into thin strips or sheets so the AR can penetrate the material to dissolve the gold out leaving silver chloride behind to be filtered off.
Unfortunately there is no simple answer to this problem except atomizing the product and then dissolving which is not a simple or cheap option.
 
Just another idea.
If one are not pressed for time, it can be melted into shots and then divided into smaller batches and inquarted.
This way the need for massive amounts of Silver will be minimized since the Silver can be reclaimed between the batches.
If Nitric cost is another hurdle, the Nitric can be reclaimed to some extent as well.

It all depends on the constraints of the OP.
Cost of chemicals, cost of labor and so on.
 
I am using aqua regia method. Now in aqua regia process, I'm facing a problem which is a layer of insoluble silver chloride protecting the gold from aqua regia. How can I dissolve the gold by using aqua regia? I will not opt for the option of using inquarting process because I have to use a lot of silver to form a 25% of gold content.

If you can bust the gold dore down to ultra fine particles you will have much better success processing the dore directly in AR - that is because if the dore metal is in ultra fine particles the AgCl doesn't have the opportunity to build up on the particles & prevent the gold from dissolving like it does on larger particles (such as just pooring the dore to shot/corn flake)

You can bust the dore down to ultra fine particles by melting the dore & then pouring it through what is called an atomizer

Here is a complete discussion about how to build & use an atomizer

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/is-it-possible-925-sterling-silver-powder.30689/
The real discussion about the atomizer doesn't start until about 1/3 way down on page 2 - but you should read the entire thread from the beginning of the thread

So - if you can atomize your gold dore you likely will still not get all the gold to go into solution (with the AR) because you will still have "some" of the AgCl problem - but you will vastly improve the amount gold you get to go into solution with AR - but - you can then recover whatever smaller amount of gold that stays hung up in the resulting AgCl when you put the AgCl through the silver refining process

In other words - if you can atomize the gold dore - you should be able to get 70 - 85 % (or even better) of the gold in the AR treatment of the atomized gold - then when you put the AgCl through the silver refining process you will recover that 15 - 30 % gold that stayed tied up in the AgCl from the AR process

With 37 kilos of dore to process this is the way I would go - rather then inquarting

The finer the dore particles that come out of atomizer the better the AR will do in dissolving the gold & leaving behind the AgCl

You will need a reaction vessel that can keep the ultra fine (atomized) particles stirred up in the AR

Kurt
 
Treatment of 37 kg worth about $2M should have been done before melting. At present, the accidental losses will be greater than the expected profit
 
Hi,

Apology for my English. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to learn.
I have received gold from mines. The weight is 37 Kgs and I want to refine this mining gold.

The Contents are:
Gold - 83%
Silver - 15%
Others - 2%

I am using aqua regia method. Now in aqua regia process, I'm facing a problem which is a layer of insoluble silver chloride protecting the gold from aqua regia. How can I dissolve the gold by using aqua regia? I will not opt for the option of using inquarting process because I have to use a lot of silver to form a 25% of gold content.

Thank you for your help.
You are gonna refine 37 kg of gold and yet do not have resources to buy at least few kg´s of silver ? That is strange. But allright, there can be various and unexpected circumstances. I wouldn´t ever let anyone refine mine 37 kg of gold, if that one seek help with task thoroughly solved in 15th century. But who am I to judge.
---------------------
There are these two pathways, both well known. In AR, you can sequentially leach gold in AR and then silver chloride with ammonia. But it is sequential process (more time) and non negligible quantity of ammonia is needed to dissolve AgCl. You can use optional solubilizing reagents such as thiosulfate or cyanide, but ammonia is with least ammount of hassle (except of the smell). Dissolution of this alloy in AR must also be very slow.
On the other hand, inquartation with silver is very effective and straightforward. You can cycle the silver as long as you want, and it will always add up. You can choose copper instead of silver, but you will consume high ammounts of nitric in the process.

This problem was thoroughly discussed here in "Lost gold thread" where the retention of gold in AgCl was one of the major issues.
I don´t like dissolving gold-silver alloys in AR as it is always somehow messy process. Hard to monitor, possibly incomplete, adding steps to the path and fractioning silver to both solids and also solution. Moreover, gold solution is saturated with AgCl, so it is obviously harder to refine pure gold from it, altough if done as it should be there are little to no problems.

Hard to say what is your goal - reducing time of processing, reducing cost of processing, reducing necessary labor in order to accomplish the task...

Cheapest option is to macerate in AR (that is probably why you are trying to do it this way). It will work, but slow. Others gave you suggestions like enlarging surface area - this speeds dissolution, but does not eliminate locking problem completely. For inquartation with copper you will need to add nearly 100 kg. And then spend more than 300 L of nitric for the task (just rough assumptions, real numbers will differ). With silver, you will cut the nitric consumption to 1/3 and use roughly 100 L. Depending on your purity goal, you won´t necessarily need to dissolve the gold from the inquart, just melt it and sell it as it is (or electrorefine it for high purity). To dissolve these 37 kg of alloy you have you would roughly need 150 L of HCL and 40-50 L HNO3, with this number being possibly higher since lots of AR will be wasted due to prolonged boiling and active reagents effervescence loss (nitrosyl chloride and chlorine). Then you will need the sulfite to drop the gold. And ammonia to free that last bit of locked gold particles.

You need to do the math, there is no magic in this chemistry. Agricola summarized it in De Re Metallica Libri in 16th century. Not much changed from his times in this particular refining task. Copper needed for inquart is around 700-1000 USD. Nitric for inquart with copper is around 500 USD if bought by the drum at my local supplier (bulk price is lower). Depending on treatment method you need to factor the price of hydroxide (if you are going to convert waste to hydroxides) or iron needed (negligible). If you look at it, these numbers are ridiculous compared to the value you are refining.

PS: You always minimize losses of metal in the process if you do not dissolve it into the solution in the first place.
 
You are gonna refine 37 kg of gold and yet do not have resources to buy at least few kg´s of silver ? That is strange. But allright, there can be various and unexpected circumstances. I wouldn´t ever let anyone refine mine 37 kg of gold, if that one seek help with task thoroughly solved in 15th century. But who am I to judge.
---------------------
There are these two pathways, both well known. In AR, you can sequentially leach gold in AR and then silver chloride with ammonia. But it is sequential process (more time) and non negligible quantity of ammonia is needed to dissolve AgCl. You can use optional solubilizing reagents such as thiosulfate or cyanide, but ammonia is with least ammount of hassle (except of the smell). Dissolution of this alloy in AR must also be very slow.
On the other hand, inquartation with silver is very effective and straightforward. You can cycle the silver as long as you want, and it will always add up. You can choose copper instead of silver, but you will consume high ammounts of nitric in the process.

This problem was thoroughly discussed here in "Lost gold thread" where the retention of gold in AgCl was one of the major issues.
I don´t like dissolving gold-silver alloys in AR as it is always somehow messy process. Hard to monitor, possibly incomplete, adding steps to the path and fractioning silver to both solids and also solution. Moreover, gold solution is saturated with AgCl, so it is obviously harder to refine pure gold from it, altough if done as it should be there are little to no problems.

Hard to say what is your goal - reducing time of processing, reducing cost of processing, reducing necessary labor in order to accomplish the task...

Cheapest option is to macerate in AR (that is probably why you are trying to do it this way). It will work, but slow. Others gave you suggestions like enlarging surface area - this speeds dissolution, but does not eliminate locking problem completely. For inquartation with copper you will need to add nearly 100 kg. And then spend more than 300 L of nitric for the task (just rough assumptions, real numbers will differ). With silver, you will cut the nitric consumption to 1/3 and use roughly 100 L. Depending on your purity goal, you won´t necessarily need to dissolve the gold from the inquart, just melt it and sell it as it is (or electrorefine it for high purity). To dissolve these 37 kg of alloy you have you would roughly need 150 L of HCL and 40-50 L HNO3, with this number being possibly higher since lots of AR will be wasted due to prolonged boiling and active reagents effervescence loss (nitrosyl chloride and chlorine). Then you will need the sulfite to drop the gold. And ammonia to free that last bit of locked gold particles.

You need to do the math, there is no magic in this chemistry. Agricola summarized it in De Re Metallica Libri in 16th century. Not much changed from his times in this particular refining task. Copper needed for inquart is around 700-1000 USD. Nitric for inquart with copper is around 500 USD if bought by the drum at my local supplier (bulk price is lower). Depending on treatment method you need to factor the price of hydroxide (if you are going to convert waste to hydroxides) or iron needed (negligible). If you look at it, these numbers are ridiculous compared to the value you are refining.

PS: You always minimize losses of metal in the process if you do not dissolve it into the solution in the first place.
Could it be possible to electrolyze it with a chloride solution? That might result in fluffier silver chloride which would fall off into the anode bag and allow the anode bar to completely dissolve.
 
Granulate the metal and use a tumbler for the digestion. Like Italimpianti or emak make. The tumbling action breaks the AgCl layer and improves the digestion.
 
Treatment of 37 kg worth about $2M should have been done before melting. At present, the accidental losses will be greater than the expected profit
Per the gold print - as the refiner - he likely received the gold already melted as dore bars --- of course that is an assumption on my part

Kurt
 
Could it be possible to electrolyze it with a chloride solution? That might result in fluffier silver chloride which would fall off into the anode bag and allow the anode bar to completely dissolve.
Tough one. Never done that. Maybe our more experienced professionals can tell. In theory it sounds nice. Reality can be tough tho. Fluffier texture of AgCl... This is hard to say as the growth of the deposit will be at determined and constant rate - so it support the hypothesis of better defined deposit to be formed. But if this would be favourable, I honestly don´t know.
 
Granulate the metal and use a tumbler for the digestion. Like Italimpianti or emak make. The tumbling action breaks the AgCl layer and improves the digestion.
Yup, tumbling action is very welcomed in this kind of refining job. Ultrasonic cleaners also help very nicely to dross off the AgCl, but with 37 kilos, I don´t think it would be as useful in such a large scale.
 
Per the gold print - as the refiner - he likely received the gold already melted as dore bars --- of course that is an assumption on my part

Kurt
I think that it is a very good assumption, since gold is marketed in solid form due to all concerns connected with powdery materials. Maybe if the mining operation had it´s own dedicated facility to process raw concentrates from ore processing, maybe the melting step wouldn´t be required.

On the other hand, you have impure gold particles of varying purity with inclusions of sulfides and other impurities. Best method for getting rid of them is to melt it and slag it out... All in all, I don´t think there is high chance of getting powdery cons nice enough to be workable directly by acids.
 
Granulate the metal and use a tumbler for the digestion.

If he can atomize the dore (as explained yesterday) he will not need a tumbler - just a reaction vessel with a stirrer

It is all about particle size

If by atomizing - any particles 150 minus mesh should dissolve the gold completely leaving just the AgCl

Particles around 80 mesh should dissolve around 95% of the gold --- then as particle size gets larger the amount of gold that gets dissolved gets to be less

So - with atomizing the dore it is possible to achieve 95 - 100% separation of the gold from the silver (as AgCl) by going direct to AR if he can achieve 100 minus mesh out of the atomizer

That "may" require classifying the atomized powders through a 100 or 150 mesh screen & then remelting the over size & pouring it through the atomizer again - until achieving all metal coming out of the atomizer goes through a 100 or 150 mesh screen

If the atomizer is properly set up & run right the vast majority of the atomized metal coming out of the atomizer should be 100 mesh & finer - so re-running the over size back through the atomizer should be minimal

For what it worth

Kurt
 
Yup, tumbling action is very welcomed in this kind of refining job. Ultrasonic cleaners also help very nicely to dross off the AgCl, but with 37 kilos, I don´t think it would be as useful in such a large scale.

One "barrel" can process ~60 kg of gold per cycle. Larger units they just create multiple "barrels".

I was talking about these types of tumblers:
1687116423876.png



If he can atomize the dore (as explained yesterday) he will not need a tumbler - just a reaction vessel with a stirrer

It is all about particle size

If by atomizing - any particles 150 minus mesh should dissolve the gold completely leaving just the AgCl

Particles around 80 mesh should dissolve around 95% of the gold --- then as particle size gets larger the amount of gold that gets dissolved gets to be less

So - with atomizing the dore it is possible to achieve 95 - 100% separation of the gold from the silver (as AgCl) by going direct to AR if he can achieve 100 minus mesh out of the atomizer

That "may" require classifying the atomized powders through a 100 or 150 mesh screen & then remelting the over size & pouring it through the atomizer again - until achieving all metal coming out of the atomizer goes through a 100 or 150 mesh screen

If the atomizer is properly set up & run right the vast majority of the atomized metal coming out of the atomizer should be 100 mesh & finer - so re-running the over size back through the atomizer should be minimal

For what it worth

Kurt

I would use an atomizer, but most people wouldn't want the hassle of building it or using it. You need to be more careful and cleaner.
 
One "barrel" can process ~60 kg of gold per cycle. Larger units they just create multiple "barrels".

I was talking about these types of tumblers:

Yes - or as the saying goes --- there is more then one way to skin a cat ;)

One of the reasons I brought atomizing up was nickvc brought it up early in the discussion (bold print by me)
Unfortunately there is no simple answer to this problem except atomizing the product and then dissolving which is not a simple or cheap option.
Also this method (atomizing) is a method I was turned on to by 4metals a few years ago & was considering building one for my own refining operation - however that was about the time I was deciding to shut my operation down (retire) & make my move from Wisconsin back out to the pacific northwest (Oregon) so the build never happened

Anyway - I guess my point is - there is more then one way to skin a cat & atomizing is one of those ways - as is tumbling - as is inquarting --- each having their own advantages and disadvantages

Soooo -I guess at this point - in order to help Phoebe out with solving his questions/problems we really need to hear back from him to learn more about his actual situation

We need to know things like -----------

Is this a one time thing (he bought some gold as an investment & now wants to refine it) or does he have a (new) client that can/will be providing him with more of this same material - or is he an actual refiner & if so how long has he been refining - or is he just starting out in refining - what kind of setup/equipment does he have - is this his own thing or is he working for someone - etc. etc. etc.

Until we hear answers back from him to those questions we can't really help him with the best direction to go in his situation

Until then - we can only provide him with suggestions (which we have done so far)

So hopefully he will chime back in & provide us with more info about his situation

This is what I know for sure --- though most of the discussion on this forum is about hobby refiners - we also have some of the worlds very best actual refiners on this forum - so we can certainly help him out - BUT - he needs to part of the discussion to receive the help he is seeking

Kurt
 
Apology for my English. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to learn.
I have received gold from mines.

Per the bold print (in the above quote) - that is what we are here for - to help those that come here with questions/problems & that are willing to learn

However - we can't really help someone unless we have a better understanding of the situation of the person asking the questions - otherwise all we can really do is provide suggestions

Please read my last post & provide us with answers to the questions I asked in that post so we can better provide you with solutions in your situation

Kurt
 
You need to be more careful and cleaner.
Opps - forgot - but I wanted to ask what you meant by that

I ask because I don't see a lot of difference between pouring to shot/corn flake & pour through an atomizer (other then end product)

The only real difference would be the reaction vessel set up you run those two different products through

That is why I was considering making an atomizer before I decided to retire (wanted to get away from inquarting) --- I already had 20 liter reaction vessels with stirrer setup - so setting up with tumbler would have been a big leap/change in my set up

Kurt
 

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