Melt/dissolve CRT leaded glass in hot lye (NaOH)

[niks neims]

Yeah, hot lye, I know

It was bugging me for quite a while, why couldn't I find any information on recycling CRT glass (recovering Pb in process) with caustic soda (lye/NaOH)

After a bit of hesitating (hot lye=scary) I decided to try it myself yesterday! It was quite interesting, incredibly dangerous but very much fun!

What I did, I put shards from CRT tube cone glass (I had them just lying around from a tube that accidentally broke a while ago, no CRTs were harmed intentionally during this experiment) In an old, empty tin (iron/steel, magnetic) baby food container, threw in a bunch of technical lye flakes and blasted it with a gasoline torch... it got pretty warm (red hot) and it all dissolved nicely, but took on this brownish-red color, I let it bubble vigorously for a while and then turned the torch off. Without heating it started to solidify quickly, I mixed it around with a steel rod - at the bottom of the container there was a little, shiny pool of still molten lead... To get the bead out I washed the red lye/glass mass with water a few times, and it all came out of container no problem... I transferred It all in to an old plastic jug for later treatment and it separated very quickly with brownish/reddish sediment (red mud?) settling on bottom and clear liquid on top (I diluted it maybe 4x the original volume)... What I want to do next is to test the liquid and sediment for presence of lead and repeat the experiment to estimate the lead yield....

So I would really like for anyone to chime in:

1.Why Isn't this done industrially? To my knowledge the CRT cone glass currently gets buried in landfills? Am I mistaken? Maybe there is a better process kept secret (Just straight-up melt the glass with heat?)? Maybe it is just not cost-efficient?

2.Hazards; While I think that I am well aware of corrosive (caustic?) effects of hot lye (you know, instant blindness in the eyes, instant hole in the hand) What about more sneaky ways this could harm me? Is there a potential for harmful fumes (think: NOx)? Is the lead volatile, can it get airborne or get me in some other way.... Of course I did this out-side, didn't let the chemicals touch my skin and didn't breath any fumes (actually there really weren't any), what more should I be aware of? Now is the time for warnings....

3.Testing and treating the waste: Most importantly I'd like to test the liquid and the red mud for lead residues, also suggestions for waste treatment are accepted:
I plan to decant the liquid and neutralize it with HCl (I guess it's basic, I'm all out of Ph papers); Hopefully it should be just saltwater at that point - I plan to bring it to a water testing lab and if there is no lead detected just dump it out.... For the red mud - I have an acquaintance with a xrf gun, I'll probably dry it, then have him nuke it and go from there...

4. Chemistry of it all.. So what's happening here - Isn't Pb amphoteric? Shouldn't it too dissolve in NaOH? The lead bead seemed quite pure (though, I have no way to tell just by looking at it), Of course in the liquid waste and red sludge there could be all manner of oxides, hydroxides, toxines and hydrtoxines...

 

[butcher]

Not something I would even consider.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNRXsya1CRR16TVDFnJyEeB6mjlXeg%3A1569829026283&source=hp&ei=orCRXcflDqXi9AO0kKj4DQ&q=smelting+lead+glass&oq=smelting+lead+glass&gs_l=psy-ab.3...3337.15525..16231...4.0..0.305.2546.9j9j2j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i39j0i131j0j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j0i13j0i13i30j0i13i10i30j33i22i29i30j33i160.G-VVN9n0nqM&ved=0ahUKEwjHvt7rhPjkAhUlMX0KHTQICt8Q4dUDCAg&uact=5

It is not supprizing even the large commercial smelters (smelting lead glass), which the EPA has not shut down yet are lossing money with this toxic messy practice.

 

[anachronism]

Nik

We had one site in the UK doing this commercially- using the smelting method. In addition to this we had a number of plants preparing the product for smelting. I believe that as Butcher said, these have gone by the wayside because of the lack of decent commericals reported by the operators.

 

[niks neims]

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNRXsya1CRR16TVDFnJyEeB6mjlXeg%3A1569829026283&source=hp&ei=orCRXcflDqXi9AO0kKj4DQ&q=smelting+lead+glass&oq=smelting+lead+glass&gs_l=psy-ab.3...3337.15525..16231...4.0..0.305.2546.9j9j2j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i39j0i131j0j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j0i13j0i13i30j0i13i10i30j33i22i29i30j33i160.G-VVN9n0nqM&ved=0ahUKEwjHvt7rhPjkAhUlMX0KHTQICt8Q4dUDCAg&uact=5

Thanks for the hint, turns out you can easily find stuff if you enter right keywords, lots of good links to study... I haven't gone through them all yet, but it seems that I was mistaken to try and bring lye in to all of this... it looked like such an obvious theory... I mean, it dramatically lowers the needed temperature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_glass), it separates lead easily and tailings - sodium silicate is useful industrial chemical as well, or am I way off base here?

It is not supprizing even the large commercial smelters (smelting lead glass), which the EPA has not shut down yet are lossing money with this toxic messy practice.

Do I correctly captured the vibe that you disapprove of lead glass recycling (Industrially)? Surely it's better than burying it in a landfill?

We had one site in the UK doing this commercially- using the smelting method. In addition to this we had a number of plants preparing the product for smelting. I believe that as Butcher said, these have gone by the wayside because of the lack of decent commericals reported by the operators.

I wonder why it is, I mean lead is global industrial commodity with somewhat stable demand and price... any idea why would they all fail? Is there some kind of bottleneck? energy consumption perhaps?

 

[butcher]

I do not see anything wrong with recycling lead glass.
I just have no interest.
I would look into using the glass to seal radioactive waste... Or something besides trying to milk it in a toxic flux melt for a little button of lead metal.

Or make window glass for xray rooms and shielding...

A lead bullet will oxidize on the surface (passivate) and not corrode much further so the bullet does not loose much of its lead to the environment, we can find bullets shot hundreds of years ago with little deterioration besides the surface oxidation.

Lead glass also oxidizes on its surface.

Speaking of bottlenecks, this reminds me of some marbles and lead glass findings.

I used to hunt artifacts while hunting on the plains of west texas, I got good at finding camp sights, caches, battlefields, ancient hunting, and battlegrounds. I could tell the different tribes and the relative age the camps by the artifacts and could place them in groups although I could not always distinguish which tribe.

I would notice shards of lead glass seemingly worked in some of the more modern campsites, at first I would pass these over and did not give them much thought.

Until one evening along the concho river while fishing I found a small cave along the riverbank, after investigating the cave I found a few flint shard worked into simple tools like hiding scrapers, drills, and knives, And a lead glass bottle bottom that was knapped into shape of a knife, the bottle bottom had a date of 1812.

I went to the library to study, searching for the history of the area around the date of the lead glass knife. This was about the time the government was trying to get immigrants to settle west texas (to fight off the natives and take over the land and settle the wild wilderness. The government was giving 500 acres grants of land to any poor immigrants that could get to west texas and thought he was brave enough to survive and work the land. there was no recorded mention of white settlement in the concho river plains around the date of the lead glass knife I had found.

But that date there were two men wishing to profit off these government land grants came up with a plan, one man in Germany and the other on the Gulf of Mexico made arrangement to ship the poor German emigrants to the Texas Gulf, the man from Germany held up his end of the bargain, and got the poor emigrants to the gulf, but the man in texas was a drunk and spent the money to get the immigrants to their land hundreds of miles through dangerous hostile country to where their land was.

The immigrants were stuck on the coast trading a hundred acres of land for a pair of boots, or for bacon...
it was several years before these immigrants would make their way up to the concho river where I found the glass knife in the cave.

After that I would pay much more attention to the lead glass I would find, I noticed the closer to fort concho (where the buffalo soldiers were stationed) I would find camps with lots of worked lead glass, marbles, square nails, pieces of barrel hoops, and wagon wheel rims, along with the occasional Calvery 50 caliber bullets, and the rare Calvery brass buttons.

Back to the library, I found where there were friendly Apache's that would camp next to the fort, the Calvery soldiers would trade their trash (bottles...) with these friendly Apache, for buffalo meat, and favors with the squaws, and other goods...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Concho


Many lead glass bottles had a big thick bubble bottoms, the lead glass has a whitish oxide layer, the marbles were the lid of the bottle (or plug), the marble inside the bottleneck would seal from pressure from the bottles Ingredients, to open the bottle they would punch the marble down into the bottle releasing the gas which kept the bottle sealed, that was the mystery of the marbles that I found in these Apache Indian camps...

 

[acpeacemaker]

I looked over this idea many millions of times and the one factor is cost vs profit. Mainly seeking copper with saleable byproducts.
I had an aquaintence with a workshop in the mountains the size of a small Wal-Mart. He got busted eventually by epa through the scrap yard he was selling to. His copper quantities were so great they eventually needed to know where it came from. That shop had 3 tiered forklift shelving units wall to wall. Completely packed out. I can't remember the fines but it was insane.

Since then I have been to one facility that had been customized for crts. They had a bay area with special saws to run through stock, and glass was refined under a special arc furnace that cost a quarter million dollars. Permits are on another level...

It's not just the lead that is an issue with what could be an expensive venture. Lead, phosphurs, fluorescent powders, barium, cadmium, yttrium, and all the inhalable pollutants. Surprisingly there has also been a lot of people shocked, and near deaths, for not properly unloading the charge that they can hold up to for 2 years. Another one that was hard for to find but I eventually did. Was a receiver for hard plastics.

If this was done on a day to day basis I would also consider consistent worker testing on exposure. Just like working for the mines here.

In the end though like I was saying just cost exceeds. However, long term health risks from exposure doesn't sound inviting....

Andrew

 

[NitrogenERbiumDYsprosium]

I do not see anything wrong with recycling lead glass.
I just have no interest.
I would look into using the glass to seal radioactive waste... Or something besides trying to milk it in a toxic flux melt for a little button of lead metal.

Or make window glass for xray rooms and shielding...

A lead bullet will oxidize on the surface (passivate) and not corrode much further so the bullet does not loose much of its lead to the environment, we can find bullets shot hundreds of years ago with little deterioration besides the surface oxidation.

Lead glass also oxidizes on its surface.

Speaking of bottlenecks, this reminds me of some marbles and lead glass findings.

I used to hunt artifacts while hunting on the plains of west texas, I got good at finding camp sights, caches, battlefields, ancient hunting, and battlegrounds. I could tell the different tribes and the relative age the camps by the artifacts and could place them in groups although I could not always distinguish which tribe.

I would notice shards of lead glass seemingly worked in some of the more modern campsites, at first I would pass these over and did not give them much thought.

Until one evening along the concho river while fishing I found a small cave along the riverbank, after investigating the cave I found a few flint shard worked into simple tools like hiding scrapers, drills, and knives, And a lead glass bottle bottom that was knapped into shape of a knife, the bottle bottom had a date of 1812.

I went to the library to study, searching for the history of the area around the date of the lead glass knife. This was about the time the government was trying to get immigrants to settle west texas (to fight off the natives and take over the land and settle the wild wilderness. The government was giving 500 acres grants of land to any poor immigrants that could get to west texas and thought he was brave enough to survive and work the land. there was no recorded mention of white settlement in the concho river plains around the date of the lead glass knife I had found.

But that date there were two men wishing to profit off these government land grants came up with a plan, one man in Germany and the other on the Gulf of Mexico made arrangement to ship the poor German emigrants to the Texas Gulf, the man from Germany held up his end of the bargain, and got the poor emigrants to the gulf, but the man in texas was a drunk and spent the money to get the immigrants to their land hundreds of miles through dangerous hostile country to where their land was.

The immigrants were stuck on the coast trading a hundred acres of land for a pair of boots, or for bacon...
it was several years before these immigrants would make their way up to the concho river where I found the glass knife in the cave.

After that I would pay much more attention to the lead glass I would find, I noticed the closer to fort concho (where the buffalo soldiers were stationed) I would find camps with lots of worked lead glass, marbles, square nails, pieces of barrel hoops, and wagon wheel rims, along with the occasional Calvery 50 caliber bullets, and the rare Calvery brass buttons.

Back to the library, I found where there were friendly Apache's that would camp next to the fort, the Calvery soldiers would trade their trash (bottles...) with these friendly Apache, for buffalo meat, and favors with the squaws, and other goods...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Concho

Many lead glass bottles had a big thick bubble bottoms, the lead glass has a whitish oxide layer, the marbles were the lid of the bottle (or plug), the marble inside the bottleneck would seal from pressure from the bottles Ingredients, to open the bottle they would punch the marble down into the bottle releasing the gas which kept the bottle sealed, that was the mystery of the marbles that I found in these Apache Indian camps...

The lead makes things taste sweet too. I think its funny how everybody was ok around lead until they told us it was dangerous...same w mercury

 

[Ultrax]

Be careful with kinescope's luminophore. It contains Yttrium oxide, its compounds caused lung damage and Europium oxide (may cause severe irritation).

 

[stoneware]

Lead smelter Trail British Colombia Canada.

At Teck’s Trail Operations, recycling programs for lead batteries, zinc alkaline batteries, and cathode ray tube (CRT) glass used in old television screens help to address this challenge.