My Next Project!!!!

[modtheworld44]

Hi Yall


Just wanted to show you what I picked up yesterday.Most of these came from old cash registers,forgot to ask what year they were from.I knew the boards when I first saw them.I paid $100.00 for the whole lot.Just wanted to see how many grams you think I'll get.Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44

 

[solar_plasma]

Conservatively guessed 2-4g (max. 6g)? There are 13 nice chips, maybe 1/2-1 pound of good pins, the plated traces and fingers are hard to guess - are they gold plated under the green paint? The low yield ICs do not really count.

 

[modtheworld44]

Conservatively guessed 2-4g (max. 6g)? There are 13 nice chips, maybe 1/2-1 pound of good pins, the plated traces and fingers are hard to guess - are they gold plated under the green paint? The low yield ICs do not really count.

solar_plasma

Now that is a real response,and a very good eye to details.You did miss the other three white ceramics though,but yes the whole entire front and back of the boards that came from the cash registers are fully gold plated under the mask.The plating is thick enough to peel it straight off the board.I plan to peel them using a razer blade.With the plating,I'm shooting more toward 7-9 grams but that's just me.

I want to take the time to formally thank you for all the time and hard work you have put into testing my H2O cell.If you have time can you give me an assessment on how much gold you think I might get out of the load that's post in my other current thread.

On another note,have you tried my GeoMod cell yet?I would be very interested to see what you can do with it.Thanks in advance for your time and hard work.



modtheworld44

 

[solar_plasma]

With the plating,I'm shooting more toward 7-9 grams but that's just me.

You may be right.

 

[solar_plasma]

On another note,have you tried my GeoMod cell yet?I

Can you show me the link? I didn't find it.

I want to take the time to formally thank you for all the time and hard work you have put into testing my H2O cell.

It seems to be the most amazing quality of this forum, that a lot of heads connect different ideas, competences and ways of thinking, evolving a team synergy and produce solutions and data in quite a short time easily. I am always happy to find something I can support you guys with.

Your tap water cell (still I see a difference between a tap water cell and a distilled water cell) has been an equal advantage for silver recovery as CuCl2 has been for gold recovery.

 

[METLMASHER]

Your tap water cell (still I see a difference between a tap water cell and a distilled water cell) has been an equal advantage for silver recovery as CuCl2 has been for gold recovery.

Has final report been given? I was reading with anticipation, and hoping, but thought the recovery was not finished, I will hunt it down and review after work.

I also think there are two cells there, one has chloride. Different critter completely.

Hope you make a shload, Mod!!

 

[modtheworld44]

On another note,have you tried my GeoMod cell yet?I

Can you show me the link? I didn't find it.

I want to take the time to formally thank you for all the time and hard work you have put into testing my H2O cell.

It seems to be the most amazing quality of this forum, that a lot of heads connect different ideas, competences and ways of thinking, evolving a team synergy and produce solutions and data in quite a short time easily. I am always happy to find something I can support you guys with.

Your tap water cell (still I see a difference between a tap water cell and a distilled water cell) has been an equal advantage for silver recovery as CuCl2 has been for gold recovery.

solar_plasma

Here you go- http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=17067


I believe that me and you have similar thought patterns when it comes to refining.I love learning new things on a daily basis and I'm sure you do too.This cell can be used two different ways,I want to see if you can figure them out.I'm sure you will considering how great you did with the other.I have another cell too that I haven't even posted yet,it's another silver refining cell.I'm actually smarter than I let on,I just think it's fun to play the dummy some times LOL...well maybe more than sometimes.I like the knowledge you share with us.Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44

 

[g_axelsson]

,but yes the whole entire front and back of the boards that came from the cash registers are fully gold plated under the mask.The plating is thick enough to peel it straight off the board.I plan to peel them using a razer blade.With the plating,I'm shooting more toward 7-9 grams but that's just me.

No, the plating is not thick enough to peel from the boards. The copper traces can be pealed with the plating but the plating in it self doesn't have that thickness or strength.

Good boards, seems to be from around 1976 (date from one chip). Don't miss all the ceramic IC:s that are soldered. At least one is split open on the picture and it shows gold brazed chip and bond wires. I have no idea of how much those could add up to, but nice when you find them.

I think you paid too much for the cards. If you get your money back, I don't know. Follow working procedures and you might do it, if you refine it as you did in the GeoMod cell thread then I predict a loss.

Göran

 

[solar_plasma]

if you refine it as you did in the GeoMod cell thread then I predict a loss.

Göran, the post you are referring to is one year old. I guess modtheworld44 has learned a lot since then.


I have never had this kind of ceramic chips, but after all I read here and calculated from different sources, I figured 3 of the biggest and best to be about 0,1g Au - if I remember correctly.

 

[g_axelsson]

if you refine it as you did in the GeoMod cell thread then I predict a loss.

Göran, the post you are referring to is one year old. I guess modtheworld44 has learned a lot since then.

Yes, but he referred to it and then I think it is fair game that I also do it. I hope he have learned a lot since then.

Göran

 

[kurtak]

Nice boards Jerry

Based on boards like those that I have done the pins should run about 3 grams per pound (meaning nice "heavy" plating) the plating is so heavy they will retain the shape of the pins as a hollow shell after the base metal is dissolved away

The plating on the fingers is just as heavy but I can't say a per pound recovery as I have always run them with other fingers

That's old technology so the bonding wires in the epoxy chips will be a heavier longer wire then in newer chips of the same type (prom type) they are still low grade chips - just saying that the recovery will be "a bit" better then newer chips of the same type

Also - I see (second pic from top - bottom right corner) a couple what looks like the mica silver caps :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22002&p=228983#p228983 --- they are worth saving till you get enough to be worth processing &/or when silver is up again

Nice score in my opinion - if you process pins, fingers & chips (both ceramics & epoxy) I think you will hit "around" 8 - 10 grams (that's considering the fact that the plating also runs fully on the traces under the solder mask - which is common with that type/age board)

Kurt

Edit to say - just looked at the pics again - you might do even better then 10 grams - those are nice boards

 

[jeneje]

Jerry, i have to ask here? First, those are nice boards. Lets say you get the 10 grams you think you will get. When you break it down what have you made? I mean clear profit from this investment.

You gave a $100.00 for the boards, you had to go somewhere to get them, $20.00 in fuel, I know it is going to take a day to prepare the material, @ $10.00 an HR that is another $80.00 in labor, You now have $200.00 in investment and NO sellable gold yet. Now you have to incinerate the chips, remove the ash, more time - time equals money, let say another eight hours total, $80.00, you now have an investment of $280.00.

Once the material has been recovered, you have to refine it. It is going to take a minimum of two gallons of HCl to recover the foils and refine any bonding wires you have. Now, if you do this the way you should, you will have your waste solutions to deal with. More time - time means labor, plus your chemicals,

So, lets figure a total of three working days, 24 hours @ $10.00 an hour = $240.00 + $100.00 for the material + fuel of $20.00 + Chemicals of $50.00 total is $410.00 investment.

At today's price March 29th 2015 = $1198.40 / 31.1 grams = $38.53 a gram. Now, i know you will not get spot for the gold you recovered, but, if you did and you got 10 grams from the material, you would have a grand total of $385.33 - it cost you $410.00 to recover and refine the gold, $410.00 - $383.33 is a loss of $24.67

I have been doing this a long time and i can not see a profit here. Please correct me if i am missing something.

If you can not make a profit why do it?

Ken
edited for spelling.

 

[kurtak]

If you can not make a profit why do it?

Ken

I can't answer for Jerry (Jerry & I talk on the phone even now & then) & so based on the phone discussions Jerry & I have had I will give "my" answer

First off - you are right Ken - if you ran those boards in & of them selves - it would not pay (or should I say "the pay" would certainly be under $10 an hour)

However - I have as well been at this for some time now (you & I actually joined the forum at about the same time - 4 plus years ago) I figured out - a long time ago - that you don't do this stuff in "small" batches & expect to make money --- you have to run it in large batch runs

In other words - these boards - in & of them selves - would be a small batch run - a small batch of pins (a pound or under) a small batch of fingers (a pound or under) & a small batch of chips (2 - 3 pounds)

The time to "harvest" pins, fingers, & chips is a wash (the same) regardless of the boards they are being harvested form - so you save nothing time wise in this step

However - when it comes to "processing" much time can be saved by running larger batches - so you harvest from these boards & add to the harvesting of other boards

I can run (process) 10 pounds of pins &/or fingers in "about" the same amount of time (maybe a "few" hours more) as doing a 1 pound of pins/fingers - so - if I wait till I have 10 pounds (or more) I save "considerable" time in processing over that of processing 10 one pound batches --- in other words - why would I spend a day recovering the foils from one pound of pins or fingers (I use nitric because I get it cheap & its faster then AP) & then another day refining the recovery from that pound - when in those same two days I can do 10 pounds (& that's just an example - I consider 10 pound of anything as small batch & like to wait till I have at least 20 pounds)

Chips are a bit different because the more chips the more time it takes to incinerate, mill & concentrate - but the same principle takes place here as well - some time is saved because once you have "set up" to incinerate - mill - &/or concentrate - you have the ball rolling with a rhythm going in each of those processes --- & again when it comes to the chem work - I can process the cons from 10 pound of chips in the same day it would take to process the cons from one pound chips (I wont even consider doing a batch of chips unless I have at east 20 pounds & prefer to "wait" till I have 40 or 50)

Its the same principle that companies like boardsort &/or the companies that do process boards work off of (& make a profit on) - boardsort can pay the high price they pay for boards - not because they make money from buying a few pounds of boards from a guy like you or me (which would be small batch) but rather because when they ad the small lot from you or I to a "bunch" of other small lots they get a large batch that can be processed at a profit - which is in turn why the companies that "process" the boards require a "minimum" --- that's because the time to process anything under the minimum is a non-profit "waste of time"

Kurt

 

[modtheworld44]

Jerry, i have to ask here? First, those are nice boards. Lets say you get the 10 grams you think you will get. When you break it down what have you made? I mean clear profit from this investment.

You gave a $100.00 for the boards, you had to go somewhere to get them, $20.00 in fuel, I know it is going to take a day to prepare the material, @ $10.00 an HR that is another $80.00 in labor, You now have $200.00 in investment and NO sellable gold yet. Now you have to incinerate the chips, remove the ash, more time - time equals money, let say another eight hours total, $80.00, you now have an investment of $280.00.

Once the material has been recovered, you have to refine it. It is going to take a minimum of two gallons of HCl to recover the foils and refine any bonding wires you have. Now, if you do this the way you should, you will have your waste solutions to deal with. More time - time means labor, plus your chemicals,

So, lets figure a total of three working days, 24 hours @ $10.00 an hour = $240.00 + $100.00 for the material + fuel of $20.00 + Chemicals of $50.00 total is $410.00 investment.

At today's price March 29th 2015 = $1198.40 / 31.1 grams = $38.53 a gram. Now, i know you will not get spot for the gold you recovered, but, if you did and you got 10 grams from the material, you would have a grand total of $385.33 - it cost you $410.00 to recover and refine the gold, $410.00 - $383.33 is a loss of $24.67

I have been doing this a long time and i can not see a profit here. Please correct me if i am missing something.

If you can not make a profit why do it?

Ken
edited for spelling.

jeneje


I can make a profit can you? With the equation you used doubt it,but with my equation even you could make a profit.Thanks in advance.


P.S 2 gallons of HCL?



modtheworld44

 

[modtheworld44]

If you can not make a profit why do it?

Ken

I can't answer for Jerry (Jerry & I talk on the phone even now & then) & so based on the phone discussions Jerry & I have had I will give "my" answer

First off - you are right Ken - if you ran those boards in & of them selves - it would not pay (or should I say "the pay" would certainly be under $10 an hour)

However - I have as well been at this for some time now (you & I actually joined the forum at about the same time - 4 plus years ago) I figured out - a long time ago - that you don't do this stuff in "small" batches & expect to make money --- you have to run it in large batch runs

In other words - these boards - in & of them selves - would be a small batch run - a small batch of pins (a pound or under) a small batch of fingers (a pound or under) & a small batch of chips (2 - 3 pounds)

The time to "harvest" pins, fingers, & chips is a wash (the same) regardless of the boards they are being harvested form - so you save nothing time wise in this step

However - when it comes to "processing" much time can be saved by running larger batches - so you harvest from these boards & add to the harvesting of other boards

I can run (process) 10 pounds of pins &/or fingers in "about" the same amount of time (maybe a "few" hours more) as doing a 1 pound of pins/fingers - so - if I wait till I have 10 pounds (or more) I save "considerable" time in processing over that of processing 10 one pound batches --- in other words - why would I spend a day recovering the foils from one pound of pins or fingers (I use nitric because I get it cheap & its faster then AP) & then another day refining the recovery from that pound - when in those same two days I can do 10 pounds (& that's just an example - I consider 10 pound of anything as small batch & like to wait till I have at least 20 pounds)

Chips are a bit different because the more chips the more time it takes to incinerate, mill & concentrate - but the same principle takes place here as well - some time is saved because once you have "set up" to incinerate - mill - &/or concentrate - you have the ball rolling with a rhythm going in each of those processes --- & again when it comes to the chem work - I can process the cons from 10 pound of chips in the same day it would take to process the cons from one pound chips (I wont even consider doing a batch of chips unless I have at east 20 pounds & prefer to "wait" till I have 40 or 50)

Its the same principle that companies like boardsort &/or the companies that do process boards work off of (& make a profit on) - boardsort can pay the high price they pay for boards - not because they make money from buying a few pounds of boards from a guy like you or me (which would be small batch) but rather because when they ad the small lot from you or I to a "bunch" of other small lots they get a large batch that can be processed at a profit - which is in turn why the companies that "process" the boards require a "minimum" --- that's because the time to process anything under the minimum is a non-profit "waste of time"

Kurt

kurtak

Thanks for that great explanation.I don't know that I could have done it any better.I know what I know because of people like you and many other members here on this great forum.I have been studying day after day for going on seven long years from the pages of this forum.

Up until June of last year,I had only refined about an ounce of gold.Then I made some head way on the research that I was doing and that total went to 3+ozs of gold in the following 6 months after that.This year my goal is to make that into 9+ozs and so far it looks like I'm headed in the right direction in my opinion.Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44

 

[jeneje]

Jerry, i have to ask here? First, those are nice boards. Lets say you get the 10 grams you think you will get. When you break it down what have you made? I mean clear profit from this investment.

You gave a $100.00 for the boards, you had to go somewhere to get them, $20.00 in fuel, I know it is going to take a day to prepare the material, @ $10.00 an HR that is another $80.00 in labor, You now have $200.00 in investment and NO sellable gold yet. Now you have to incinerate the chips, remove the ash, more time - time equals money, let say another eight hours total, $80.00, you now have an investment of $280.00.

Once the material has been recovered, you have to refine it. It is going to take a minimum of two gallons of HCl to recover the foils and refine any bonding wires you have. Now, if you do this the way you should, you will have your waste solutions to deal with. More time - time means labor, plus your chemicals,

So, lets figure a total of three working days, 24 hours @ $10.00 an hour = $240.00 + $100.00 for the material + fuel of $20.00 + Chemicals of $50.00 total is $410.00 investment.

At today's price March 29th 2015 = $1198.40 / 31.1 grams = $38.53 a gram. Now, i know you will not get spot for the gold you recovered, but, if you did and you got 10 grams from the material, you would have a grand total of $385.33 - it cost you $410.00 to recover and refine the gold, $410.00 - $383.33 is a loss of $24.67

I have been doing this a long time and i can not see a profit here. Please correct me if i am missing something.

If you can not make a profit why do it?

Ken
edited for spelling.

jeneje


I can make a profit can you? With the equation you used doubt it,but with my equation even you could make a profit.Thanks in advance.


P.S 2 gallons of HCL?



modtheworld44

Jerry, you represent yourself here as a knowledgeable refiner. Explain to me how you plan to make a profit on this lot of boards? What process are you going to use? How are you going to recover the material? What plan do you have to neutralize the waste created?

I am interested in knowing this...No, i can not make a profit on the lot, because i take into account all the costs and i think my time is worth something. I hear this all the time "It's a Hobby" a hobby is something you do in your spare time a few hours a week or a month. If, i set down tonight and tie 20 flies for fishing this next weekend, it's my hobby.

If i buy a truckload of electronics, it not a hobby it's a job to make money. Before i can make a profit, i need to know my total costs involved. Personally i don't think you know your costs. You want others here to say you done good, but the reality is you did not. $100.00 for this lot is way to much. $20.00 to $25.00 would have been a big price for those boards. When you add your time, chemicals, utilities and a % of profit your in the hole.

Ten grams is a far reach for this lot of material, if, an experienced refiner with the proper technique and equipment maybe. Working from home outside i don't think so.

I hate to be so blunt here, but new members reading this post needs to know they can not go out and buy these few boards and expect to make money on them. This is my opinion and does not represent the GRF in No way.

Ken

 

[solar_plasma]

Ken, I do not join any party, but almost every buisiness (at least where I live) is starting the first 3 or even 5 years making a minus before it is going to be profitable. So, even modtheworld only gets the invested money back, he has gathered more experience and found new connections that will sell to him again .

Your price seem correct and that would have been the price I would have paid (too many different processes involved), but it's hard for many to get the stuff at the prices the big shops are paying as long as they aren't a big shop.

On the other hand I share your scepticism from the perspective of making a living this way.

@all
I do not appreciate the bad vibration I feel between the lines in the forum the last days. :roll:

Never make me a moderator, I would close and delete threads each day from the first day :lol: :twisted: :mrgreen: 8)

 

[jeneje]

Ken, I do not join any party, but almost every buisiness (at least where I live) is starting the first 3 or even 5 years making a minus before it is going to be profitable. So, even modtheworld only gets the invested money back, he has gathered more experience and found new connections that will sell to him again .

I agree that start up businesses show a loss for the first five years. Most start up businesses has several things going there way, first, they have investment capital, line of credit or other financial sources. They have a market analysis done, a business plan that contains the operating costs and adjustments for the first five years.

They look at the market and where it is going and plan accordingly. They know what their operating costs are before they buy material. They already know what that material will yield or close to it if, it is done correctly, and also their costs to process it.

I think it was GSP that said if you are doing refining the first thing you need is an assay lab. The reason for this is to assay your material before you buy, not after. Would you buy a 14K ring by just looking at it? I wouldn't.

Without having accurate knowledge of what you are buying, how do you know if you are making a good deal or not, or if, you are going to make money? I am not trying to come down on Mod, but when i read a post by him asking "how much do you think i can get" tells me he has not done any homework on the material he brought. Buying something and then asking if he done good is not the way to start a business. I'm sorry, but it is not.

I know Jerry, him and i have had this conversation before and i see it went in one ear and out the other. Nothing would make me happier than to see him become a successful refiner, but he has to learn to take the advice given and use it to his advantage, not against himself.

Everyone of those boards has numbers on the IC chips, if it were me, i would have took down a few numbers and researched them and asked questions about what they may yield. Done the math and figured out my costs and then made a bid. Once i reached my total bid price - that would have been it, win or lose.

Maybe i am not getting through to him, maybe someone else can.

Ken
edited for spelling.

 

[solar_plasma]

Fair enough.

Would you buy a 14K ring by just looking at it? I wouldn't.

Offtopic but: Yes I do sometimes :lol: I use to cross check plausibility based on psychology, physics and common sense and buy low to compensate a calculated risk. Never failed. But only bought, when I felt really sure.

Deep reading your sentence: No, I wouldn't, I have a deep look at the seller, too and the making of the marks, the weight and volume of the ring. So, in fact I do not just look at the ring.

 

[JHS]

Knowing Jerry and his work habits, it will take far less than 24 hours to process this material.Unless you count the time for the acid's to do there job.
Personally,I do not sit and watch the acid,I use that time to break down more material.
You could look at it this way,40 hrs.at a convience store for $7.00 per hour= $280 . 24 hours refining $230 based on ken's projections.
Which would you choose.
john