Electrochemistry question about no electrolyte in electrolytic process

[Refine2017]

There are videos on YouTube of people doing electrolysis without any electrolyte. They use metal electrodes that are relatively close to each other and when they turn on their power source the solution starts to fizz like if it had any electrolyte. How is this possible? What is the mathematical way of writing these reactions down If distilled water and copper electrodes are used? And will some copper deposit in the solution?

 

[butcher]

there must be something as an electrolyte even if it is just water H⁺ OH^-, O₂, H_3O...
Water can have other Cations such as Ca, Mg, and contain Anions CO3, and the water can split...
The water itself can act as an electrolyte solution...

The electrode's being placed very close to each other, overcomes the resistance, putting some metal ions into solution the electrodes can be moved apart as the electrolyte now contains much more cations and anions in solution and thus a stronger electrolytic solution...

colloidal silver can be made in distilled water using a similar process.

 

[Refine2017]

there must be something as an electrolyte even if it is just water H⁺ OH^-, O₂, H_3O...
Water can have other Cations such as Ca, Mg, and contain Anions CO3, and the water can split...
The water itself can act as an electrolyte solution...

The electrode's being placed very close to each other, overcomes the resistance, putting some metal ions into solution the electrodes can be moved apart as the electrolyte now contains much more cations and anions in solution and thus a stronger electrolytic solution...

colloidal silver can be made in distilled water using a similar process.

So when they make colloidal silver using this process, do the electrodes corrode? Like faster than if it had a salt electrolyte?

For distilled water and let's say silver electrodes, cam you help show me the reaction equation?

 

[Lino1406]

Cathode: 2H+ +2e- = H2
Anode: 2OH- = H2O + 1/2O2 +2e-

 

[butcher]

The electrodes do not corrode any time in the cell.

Corrosion is not what happens, to better understand and to properly discuss what is happening we need to try and use the proper terms the best we can to explain it.

Here we are not discussing corrosion. We are talking about Oxidation and reduction of the metals.
when we are dealing with metals or acids and bases, we are dealing with the atoms of the metals.

Oxidation (the loss of electrons or gain of oxygen). When metals are corroded they are oxidized, the corrosion is a salt of the metal, or metal dissolved into a salt solution, the atoms of the metal when they lose their electrons become ions of the metal (or the salt of that metal, the metal ions are called Cations they carry a positive charge (the missing electrons), in the silver cell the silver metal with all of its atoms is oxidized at the anode, in this case, the oxidation is forced by the power supply. with electrolysis, we can force reactions to occur that would not occur otherwise. (our example here silver will not oxidize or lose electrons in water or in silver nitrate salt, but with the electrical force of the power supply we can force this reaction to happen.

Anytime we have oxidation something has to be reduced, anytime something is reduced something else has to be oxidized. One gains electrons the other loses electrons.

Reduction is the gain of electrons, when ions (salts) gain electrons they are reduced back to elemental metal atoms with a full shell of electrons. (reduction of salts back into metal).

In the electrolytic cell, the metals are oxidized (the atoms loses electrons to become ions of that metal in solution) at the anode (positive of the power supply).
On the other side of the cell, at the cathode, the ions are reduced (gain electrons) to change from an ion to an elemental metal atom.

Our electrolyte is a salt (even if it is just water, a combination of Hydrogen H⁺and hydroxide OH^-). In our discussion here we will use silver nitrate (salt) as an electrolyte, which consists of positive silver Cations Ag⁺, and negative nitrate Anions NO₃^-.

Note: the silver ions Ag⁺ are missing electrons, the nitrate has an excess of electrons when we made this silver salt for our electrolyte we used nitric acid to dissolve the silver metal, the silver was oxidized (the acid took its electrons) the silver atoms became positive ions (anions) in solution,at the same time the nitric acid was reduced (gain of electrons) to form a nitrate salt negative Ions (Cations) in solution.
silver metal was oxidized at the same time the acid was reduced. Basically movements of electrons in the chemical reaction...

In the cell the positive of our power supply is at the anode, the negative is at the cathode.
The metal we are oxidizing into solution is at the anode and the metal deposits on the cathode where the ions are reduced back to elemental metal.

The negative Cations migrate toward the anode (NO3^-).
The positive metal Anions Ag⁺ migrate toward the cathode.

At the anode (positive pole of the power supply, the silver metal (Ag) atoms are losing electrons to become silver metal Ions (Cations) Ag+ which go into the soluton as the electrolyte.

At the cathode (negative of the power supply the silver ions (Ag⁺), gain electrons to be reduced back to silver metal (Ag).

This is a forced reaction using the power supply to force the movements of electrons.

The electrolyte is a salt (even if just water), it has positive Cations and negative Anions. To reduce silver at the cathode we must have silver ions around the cathode. The more Ag⁺) surrounding the cathode the more silver will gain electrons to become a metal deposit and free the NO₃ Anions to move to the anode where the silver is oxidized to replenish the electrolyte of silver ions.

With pure water when we began we do not have silver ions in solution, we overcome resistance by bringing the anode and cathode to almost touching, to split the water to anions and cations, then the silver is oxidized putting some silver ions into the electrolyte, which can now be reduced at the cathode. freeing the Anion to migrate and gain more silver ions at the anode....

The simple answer to the question, the more salt (ions and cations in solution) the less resistance and the more oxidation, and reduction that will take place. (as you called it more "corrosion"). the electrolyte will need to contain silver ions, the more silver ions in solution (which would also mean the more positive Anions in Solution) the more you would see the anode oxidize.

 

[Refine2017]

The electrodes do not corrode any time in the cell.

Corrosion is not what happens, to better understand and to properly discuss what is happening we need to try and use the proper terms the best we can to explain it.

Here we are not discussing corrosion. We are talking about Oxidation and reduction of the metals.
when we are dealing with metals or acids and bases, we are dealing with the atoms of the metals.

Oxidation (the loss of electrons or gain of oxygen). When metals are corroded they are oxidized, the corrosion is a salt of the metal, or metal dissolved into a salt solution, the atoms of the metal when they lose their electrons become ions of the metal (or the salt of that metal, the metal ions are called Cations they carry a positive charge (the missing electrons), in the silver cell the silver metal with all of its atoms is oxidized at the anode, in this case, the oxidation is forced by the power supply. with electrolysis, we can force reactions to occur that would not occur otherwise. (our example here silver will not oxidize or lose electrons in water or in silver nitrate salt, but with the electrical force of the power supply we can force this reaction to happen.

Anytime we have oxidation something has to be reduced, anytime something is reduced something else has to be oxidized. One gains electrons the other loses electrons.

Reduction is the gain of electrons, when ions (salts) gain electrons they are reduced back to elemental metal atoms with a full shell of electrons. (reduction of salts back into metal).

In the electrolytic cell, the metals are oxidized (the atoms loses electrons to become ions of that metal in solution) at the anode (positive of the power supply).
On the other side of the cell, at the cathode, the ions are reduced (gain electrons) to change from an ion to an elemental metal atom.

Our electrolyte is a salt (even if it is just water, a combination of Hydrogen H⁺and hydroxide OH^-). In our discussion here we will use silver nitrate (salt) as an electrolyte, which consists of positive silver Cations Ag⁺, and negative nitrate Anions NO₃^-.

Note: the silver ions Ag⁺ are missing electrons, the nitrate has an excess of electrons when we made this silver salt for our electrolyte we used nitric acid to dissolve the silver metal, the silver was oxidized (the acid took its electrons) the silver atoms became positive ions (anions) in solution,at the same time the nitric acid was reduced (gain of electrons) to form a nitrate salt negative Ions (Cations) in solution.
silver metal was oxidized at the same time the acid was reduced. Basically movements of electrons in the chemical reaction...

In the cell the positive of our power supply is at the anode, the negative is at the cathode.
The metal we are oxidizing into solution is at the anode and the metal deposits on the cathode where the ions are reduced back to elemental metal.

The negative Cations migrate toward the anode (NO3^-).
The positive metal Anions Ag⁺ migrate toward the cathode.

At the anode (positive pole of the power supply, the silver metal (Ag) atoms are losing electrons to become silver metal Ions (Cations) Ag+ which go into the soluton as the electrolyte.

At the cathode (negative of the power supply the silver ions (Ag⁺), gain electrons to be reduced back to silver metal (Ag).

This is a forced reaction using the power supply to force the movements of electrons.

The electrolyte is a salt (even if just water), it has positive Cations and negative Anions. To reduce silver at the cathode we must have silver ions around the cathode. The more Ag⁺) surrounding the cathode the more silver will gain electrons to become a metal deposit and free the NO₃ Anions to move to the anode where the silver is oxidized to replenish the electrolyte of silver ions.

With pure water when we began we do not have silver ions in solution, we overcome resistance by bringing the anode and cathode to almost touching, to split the water to anions and cations, then the silver is oxidized putting some silver ions into the electrolyte, which can now be reduced at the cathode. freeing the Anion to migrate and gain more silver ions at the anode....

The simple answer to the question, the more salt (ions and cations in solution) the less resistance and the more oxidation, and reduction that will take place. (as you called it more "corrosion"). the electrolyte will need to contain silver ions, the more silver ions in solution (which would also mean the more positive Anions in Solution) the more you would see the anode oxidize.

So which would you assume is a better process. Salt or just water in the solution?

 

[butcher]

I would say it depends on what I trying to do, and why.
If I was wanting a medicine which involved metals as colloids, then water.

In the example of colloidal silver discussed in above post, the silver and splitting of the water form the weak electrolyte solution, the pH of the water changes as the water splits, the silver loses electrons and is oxidized into solution as silver ions which colloid before they can be reduced when done properly.


But for anything else. You would want Positive Metal Cations and negative Anions in Solution (Salts).
Acidic or Basic solution full of ions called the electrolyte solution.

Forget about no electrolyte, or trying different salts...
Determine what your trying to make a battery, or what metal you wish to refine, and study that, study how electrolysis works, and learn how to make and run the cell, there is a lot of details you need to understand to get good results. The best way would be to pick a cell like the silver cell and study it, Note study first, then during your quest into your work you find something you do not understand of that study then ask the question.

At this point your asking questions of a subject you know little or nothing about, which also means you do not even know what questions to ask.
You need to study the subject more to even ask questions that will get you closer to your goal.
If you are trying to learn how to build a silver cell study that, when you get stumped in your study, ask the forum, GSP will gladly help answer an educated question to get you over that stump.

When you ask uneducated questions all you can get is a simple answer to that uneducated question (will it work? No.).
If you do get a detailed educated answer you wouldn't understand all of it (you have nothing to relate it to).

When you ask an educated question you will get a more detailed educated answer, and through your own education in the subject, you will get a deeper understanding. Thus achieving your goal of educating yourself to refine silver in the cell, or whatever your goal.

 

[Refine2017]

I would say it depends on what I trying to do, and why.
If I was wanting a medicine which involved metals as colloids, then water.

In the example of colloidal silver discussed in above post, the silver and splitting of the water form the weak electrolyte solution, the pH of the water changes as the water splits, the silver loses electrons and is oxidized into solution as silver ions which colloid before they can be reduced when done properly.


But for anything else. You would want Positive Metal Cations and negative Anions in Solution (Salts).
Acidic or Basic solution full of ions called the electrolyte solution.

Forget about no electrolyte, or trying different salts...
Determine what your trying to make a battery, or what metal you wish to refine, and study that, study how electrolysis works, and learn how to make and run the cell, there is a lot of details you need to understand to get good results. The best way would be to pick a cell like the silver cell and study it, Note study first, then during your quest into your work you find something you do not understand of that study then ask the question.

At this point your asking questions of a subject you know little or nothing about, which also means you do not even know what questions to ask.
You need to study the subject more to even ask questions that will get you closer to your goal.
If you are trying to learn how to build a silver cell study that, when you get stumped in your study, ask the forum, GSP will gladly help answer an educated question to get you over that stump.

When you ask uneducated questions all you can get is a simple answer to that uneducated question (will it work? No.).
If you do get a detailed educated answer you wouldn't understand all of it (you have nothing to relate it to).

When you ask an educated question you will get a more detailed educated answer, and through your own education in the subject, you will get a deeper understanding. Thus achieving your goal of educating yourself to refine silver in the cell, or whatever your goal.

Hey thanks I appreciate it.
You got any tips on best books on electrolysis?

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

Hey thanks I appreciate it.
You got any tips on best books on electrolysis?

*Recovery and refining of metals; Dr G. Gore
*Principles of Applied Electrochemistry; A. J. Allmand
*Electro-deposition, a practical treatise on electrolysis of au,ag,cu,etc..
*Secrets of Gold and Silver Scrap; goldsilverpro

First and last I have read cover to cover, buy them both.
The middle two I have only read certain chapters that are applicable to what I want to do, i.e. produce pure precious metals.
There are several chapters on many other metals as well as the nobel ones.

 

[Shark]

Let's not forget this area...... http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=86

While it may not be as comprehensive as the aforementioned, it will answer many of your question's that will arise from reading the others. Before reinventing the wheel the first question should be "What is wrong with the original wheel?" To answer that question, you need to test drive the "broken" wheel.

Before trying to find some new method of refining, you need to understand the old ways. Old does not mean broken, and certainly does not mean it won't work. What it means to me is "Understand the tried and true methods and be able to use them first".

EDIT: added links.

Might find these interesting as well.

http://www.aklectures.com/subject/general-chemistry#135-Electrochemistry

https://chem.libretexts.org/Core/Analytical_Chemistry/Electrochemistry

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

Well put Shark
And thank you for the links

 

[FrugalRefiner]

"The Electro-Plating and Electro-Refining of Metals", Arnold Philip.

Dave