Questions Using Vinegar, Sea Salt & Peroxide For Green Boards

[scrapparts]

Hello members,

I saw a YouTube video from forum member kadriver using vinegar, sea salt and peroxide to remove gold from finger boards. The video was so promising, I decided to give it a try. I did, and it works well without the need to use any dangerous acids.

I have used this process and I have stripped gold from pinless/padded fiber cpu's and depopulated cell phone boards without any problems at all. But I am in need of knowing a few things about this process and hopefully someone can provide some answers to the questions below.

Questions

1. Does the solution dissolve gold? The reason I ask is because when I stir my solution and see all the gold flakes swirling around in the container, they seem to be almost nothing when the boards are totally stripped of the gold.

2. Will placing a piece of copper bar drop the gold if it is dissolved and in the solution? The reason I ask is because I took a sample of the blueish solution and put some in a 50mL beaker and placed a piece of flat copper in the solution and I noticed that after sitting for a week now, the beaker has white sludge buildup, which appears to be maybe silver, but I don't think I see any brown powder (gold powder) in the bottom.

The main blue waste solution was put in a gallon milk jug and when I looked at it today (from sitting a week now) I see black spots on the bottom of the solution in the jug. They look like polka dots. I don't know if that is gold or not.

I do believe that the cellphone boards I depopulated using my heat gun have silver mixture in the solder because when I take the boards and place them in the solution, the solution will get a white milky look, but after filtering the solution is clear, yet light blue. When I touch one of the cellphone boards, every trace of solder just wipes right off. After that, I put them back in the solution to take all the gold off.

I took my first batch of white sludge and put it in a beaker and I noticed that there are gold flakes in the sludge. I know I can heat the sludge with hot water and re-filter it to capture the gold flakes.

3. Is the copper dropping silver from the solution?

All in all, from all the gold flakes I see when they are actually coming off the boards, till the time I decide to filter the solution, there is hardly any gold flakes. I'm thinking that a lot of gold traces on boards are so thin, that if left in solution for over 24 hours it dissolves so much of the copper that the gold almost vanishes, meaning there is a very thin amount of gold over top of a heavier layer of copper.

I also think that much of the gold flakes still swirling around is still mostly copper.



scrapparts

 

[scrapparts]

This is my first batch of gold recovered from cellphone boards using vinegar, sea salt and peroxide.

scrapparts

 

[chuckgambale]

Please tell me (us) that you don't sleep 2 feet away from where you are stripping those fingers. Indoors is bad enough, but where you sleep man come on. Vinegar is acetic acid and when mixed with an oxidizer as you can see it dissolves copper and base metals. It will rot everything in your house starting with you.

 

[butcher]

Vinegar is an organic acid which provides the hydrogen (same as HCl acid), the salt provides the chloride (and sodium ions), the copper provides the copper ions, and you made copper chloride.

You state not using dangerous acids, well in my mind using vinegar is not safer than the use of HCl acid, the dangers are the same both make toxic solutions, and gases...


The process and chemistry is almost the same, except the use of a weaker acid and carbon compound of the vinegar, you are making copper II chloride to dissolve copper.

You do not have as much hydrogen from the acid with vinegar, so some of your copper II chloride is forming copper I chloride (the white powder), you could add HCl to dissolve it, or try a whole lot more vinegar and salt, to oxidize the CuCl to CuCl2.

As long as you see the white powder you would not have gold dissolved in solution, it would have been reduced before the copper II Chloride was reduced, so no need to dissolve more copper (cementing), all that would do is make more copper I chloride, which would then need more acid to get the copper to go back into copper II chloride to recover the gold flakes from your copper I chloride (white powders).

It is the oxidizer in solution that makes dissolving gold possible, the process is not much different, use too much or too strong of an oxidizer and you could put some gold into solution, dissolving copper would replace the gold in solution with copper...

 

[scrapparts]

Please tell me (us) that you don't sleep 2 feet away from where you are stripping those fingers. Indoors is bad enough, but where you sleep man come on. Vinegar is acetic acid and when mixed with an oxidizer as you can see it dissolves copper and base metals. It will rot everything in your house starting with you.

I bought this inside to take pictures because it was dark outside. So, to answer your question about doing this inside, the answer is "No" I'm not doing this inside where I sleep. The first picture is my basement where I sleep sometimes when I'm too tired to go upstairs and I just put this there to take pictures. That's all.

scrapparts

 

[scrapparts]

I have a few questions. Things are going well and I've been experimenting and taking notes. The process has been going well and I'm also trying it on 58g of green fiber cpu pins. I'll give an update after a week has gone by.

The questions I have all pertain to recovering the copper from the solution and (or) sludge.

1) After filtering the solution that is now blue, could I put in a piece of steel to drop the copper?
2) Is that solution copper nitrate?
3) Can I recover the copper from the sludge? If so, how would you do it?
4) Is that sludge copper chloride?

Thanks again for all the help too. I have some pictures to share of my progress on using this method. I have plenty of notes concerning this process. The only thing I haven't done as far as my processes is use heat.

I took some stripped cellphone boards that had solder residue all over them, and for experimental purposes, I placed them in the solution that was used (clear blue), and without using any air bubbles, I checked the boards about 4 hours later, and when I swirled the solution it streaked of silver/grey color, and when I pulled up a few of the cellphone boards and smeared the solder marks and everything wipes right off.

Removing the solder first makes less contamination when you're trying to recover the actual gold flakes, and plus it helps by keeping the solution from turning into a blueish/white milkshake looking solution. I noticed that when the solder is removed first, the boards process better and the solution stays clearer and not cloudy.

scrapparts

 

[Simon007]

How would you have copper nitrate? You haven't used any nitrates right?

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[scrapparts]

How would you have copper nitrate? You haven't used any nitrates right?

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

This is why I'm asking questions. I don't know the answers, but I'd like to.

At the same time, I am learning something new about question no# 1. The answer to that question appear to be "YES". I took a small beaker (50mL) and added some solution (clear blue) to it and placed a piece of steel in there, and right now the solution has turned almost dark green, and there is now a dark brownish/black dust at the bottom of the beaker. It's not much, but there is something. It's only been about 5 hours the steel piece been in the solution when I noticed the solution color change from blue to green.

If dissolving copper into liquid form is called copper nitrate, then I would say that this solution is copper nitrate because I am dropping copper out of the solution with a piece of steel.

I hope I'm thinking correct, but if not, someone please explain it to me so I can understand it better. Again, I have pictures and I'll post them asap.

These experiments are quite exciting because I'm learning a new way of processing e-scrap and other gold plated items using different chemicals/liquids, compounds.

I will soon experiment the same things as before, but this time use heat.

On another note: The gold plated cpu pins are still going and they haven't budged yet. Tomorrow afternoon they will have been in solution for one week. I'll elaborate on that later on. All in all, I enjoy what I'm learning and it's very educational too... Oh, and rewarding too.

scrapparts

 

[everydayisalesson]

To have copper nitrate, you must dissolve copper into nitric acid or a nitrated solution. Please don't take this the wrong way as everyone is here to help but you need to stop playing. Put your solutions away and read, preferably Hokes book Refining Precious Metal Wastes.

What your doing IS DANGEROUS and can hurt you. Some solutions can turn into explosive elements, mixing some solutions can cause gasses that will kill you in minutes. Please take my advice.

Mike

 

[Geo]

What you are making is copper(II) chloride. By adding the H2O2, you are oxidizing the solution and it will dissolve copper. When you add more copper to the solution to force it to continue dissolving copper, the solution can't hold it all and the excess precipitates out as a white powder (CuCl). If you mix fresh HCl to the white powder, it would dissolve into copper(II) chloride. It should not dissolve gold. Even aqua regia will not dissolve gold in the presence of copper metal or I should say it is very difficult at most.

 

[scrapparts]

What you are making is copper(II) chloride. By adding the H2O2, you are oxidizing the solution and it will dissolve copper. When you add more copper to the solution to force it to continue dissolving copper, the solution can't hold it all and the excess precipitates out as a white powder (CuCl). If you mix fresh HCl to the white powder, it would dissolve into copper(II) chloride. It should not dissolve gold. Even aqua regia will not dissolve gold in the presence of copper metal or I should say it is very difficult at most.

Thanks for the reply Geo. That's what I was looking for. Something I wasn't understanding. Your reply lets me know that I've been on the right track, but I just didn't know if my analysis or theories were correct or not.

Being as though I'm out of HCL I will be using some of Muriatic Acid to dissolve the copper chloride so I can filter the gold flakes away from it.

Thanks again for the info Geo.

To have copper nitrate, you must dissolve copper into nitric acid or a nitrated solution. Please don't take this the wrong way as everyone is here to help but you need to stop playing. Put your solutions away and read, preferably Hokes book Refining Precious Metal Wastes.

What your doing IS DANGEROUS and can hurt you. Some solutions can turn into explosive elements, mixing some solutions can cause gasses that will kill you in minutes. Please take my advice.

Mike

I think you've been taking my thread the wrong way. For starters, I know what I'm doing. That's why I'm experimenting. Also, I have Hoke's book and I've read it and will read it again and I refer to it quite often. I have used the 3 common acids used to refine (HCL, Nitric, Sulfuric) before. I am trying a new way to do what I already know how to do. Nothing wrong with that.

What everyone does here as far as refining is concerned is DANGEROUS, and could hurt or even kill a person, even you too. We all make mistakes, but what I've been working on and how I've been doing what I've been doing, no mistakes were made. I never mentioned that I messed up on anything yet.

While I'm asking questions and hoping to get answers, I do however try to solve the mystery myself, if possible. If not, I wait until I hear from someone. So, when you said "you need to stop playing", I take that the wrong way because I'm not playing with anything and your reply makes me think that YOU think I don't know what I'm doing. I do know what I'm doing. Not that your opinions matters to me, but because I ask questions doesn't mean that someone should assume I don't know what I'm doing.

Part of my learning is by asking questions. It's been working for me for a very long time now.

scrapparts

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Being as though I'm out of HCL I will be using some of Muriatic Acid to dissolve the copper chloride so I can filter the gold flakes away from it.

HCl and muriatic acid are the same thing. Muriatic is an old name for HCl just as copperas is an old name for ferrous sulfate, and oil of vitriol is an old name for sulfuric acid.

To have copper nitrate, you must dissolve copper into nitric acid or a nitrated solution. Please don't take this the wrong way as everyone is here to help but you need to stop playing.

I think you've been taking my thread the wrong way. For starters, I know what I'm doing.So, when you said "you need to stop playing", I take that the wrong way because I'm not playing with anything and your reply makes me think that YOU think I don't know what I'm doing. I do know what I'm doing. Not that your opinions matters to me, but because I ask questions doesn't mean that someone should assume I don't know what I'm doing.

scrapparts, while you may not have liked the way everydayisalesson presented his message, there is some validity to what he said. I understand you believe you understand what you're doing, but he is correct in pointing out that you can't have copper nitrate without introducing nitric acid or another nitrate. He is trying to help you. There is no need to get offended. He did say "Please don't take this the wrong way", so although you didn't like his terminology in saying "stop playing", try not to take it the wrong way.

There is so much to learn. It can get confusing. So when someone sees a member saying they have created copper nitrate without using a nitrate, or that they are out of HCl so they'll be using muriatic, it isn't a great leap to be concerned that they don't completely understand what they're doing. Don't take offence. Try to learn from what they've said.

Dave

 

[everydayisalesson]

Thank Dave. The wife says I have a habit of talking without a filter. Scrapparts, about a year ago, a guy came to this forum just "experimenting," he ended up in the hospital for months with cyanide poisoning. We have also had members with years of experience end up getting hurt because of a small lapse of judgement or just from a distraction. At least one member has died from refining.

I understand your excitement and learning this can be very fun but, again dont take this offensively, if you do not know the difference between copper chloride and copper nitrate you need to stop. Its kind of like putting gas in the car and someone asking if you put oil in it and you replying yes I filled it up. They are both oil based but completely different.

Im not trying to be mean but you need to study more.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

What about copper acetate?
Surely there is still some of that in there too, judging solely by the blue colour.?

I dont know if that matters at all for any of the relevant points of discussion in this thread, but yah...

 

[anachronism]

I think Mike's comments are valid and more importantly safe.

You say you know what you are doing but you thought it might be a Nitrate solution when you used nothing to make it so. Yet you still say that you know what you are doing. I'm struggling to unsee that solution in your home, and no amount of political correctness should stop people being able to tell you in no uncertain terms how dumb it is to bring that into your living space especially when you don't even know what's in it.

We all still have a lot to learn, but getting defensive about being told so tends to make people clam up rather than open their arms and offer help.

Do it properly and we will all (myself included) offer you all the help and advice you could ever need but get the basics right, learn your chemistry, and don't ever ever bring a jar of chemicals (known or unknown) into your living space again. If you want to take the huff about what I said then that's you're prerogative but we have an expression over here in the UK that may translate over there which goes along the lines of "If you choose to take offence at good advice then you're cutting your nose off to spite your face."

I wish you all the best, and I look forwards to hearing from you very soon.

Jon

 

[richoc]

I have been doing this with out the salt for years , I just simmer down the vinegar to make it stronger.
Just test you solutions for gold, mine is clean.
I then remove the copper, and have no issues with silver.
Until refining the recovered gold.
Regular AP will take some gold.
Yes test it after resting a while it will start to settle out.
But I do not know the reason for the salt at all, seams to make a mess to me.

 

[NobleMetalsRecovery]

How do you remove the copper? and are there any metallic acetates left over, if yes, how to you deal with them?

 

[cuchugold]

Can anyone add the letter 'u' to the title of this interesting thread?. Thanks. :shock:

 

[Geometals]

Like AP (CuCl2) if it is done correctly, there shouldn't be any solid metals left except for gold. In my experience, CuCl2 will even dissolve stainless steel if exposed to it long enough. Don't hold me to it but I believe the acetate is consumed in the process leaving CuCl2 behind.

 

[ozcentric]

All of you are failing basic chemistry with great aplomb when you say it cannot possibly be a nitrate compound! I have one question, what things contain nitrates naturally?

If you don't pay attention to details even if they seem negligible the bus is going to hit you.

For all of you getting upset right now ditch your own ego and attitude of self importance and direct that energy towards firing those neurons, you will live longer and happier lives that way.

For everyone still scratching their heads the answer is sea salt and water from the 3% peroxide. Both generally with low concentrations alone but mixed together could possibly be enough. Also where are these being kept and are external contaminents being locked out completely? If you have test strips you can verify it that way. I think pool water test kits may also be used to check nitrate levels, dont quote me on that.

Keep experimenting buddy, just make yourself some safety checklists to run through every time for the various scenario's. It only takes missing one small detail to ruin your day.