I have a pound or two or more of 10k, 12k gold filled items with also the same amount of 1/10th/1/20th 10K & 12K, gold filled plated items. Then I also have about 5 pounds of regular gold plated stuff. Can anyone tell me the difference in the gold filled and gold filled plated. I know what the gold plated is but I dont know the difference in the old stuff, the gold filled and gold filled plated? I can feel by weight there is some difference but I don't know for sure. I have been an electrician all my life and can do most of the other skilled trades. I have already built my hood and installed my suction fan out of an old heat pump. I have bought up a good supply of ammonia nitrate fertilizer and want to make my own nitric acid to save money. Will this nitric be strong enough to serve the purpose of melting the gold after I melt it and make shot out of it? I have muratic acid, can't this serve as hydrochloic acid as well. I just need someone who has been there and done that to help me along. I don't want to burn myself, I respect this stuff more than I do the electricity I work with. Just trying to make a few extra dollars during these hard times. Thanks to anyone who can give me some instruction to keep me from hurting myself. I have been reading the books and watching the videos but still have questions. Thanks in advance for any advice you could give me. Oneal58
Refining Gold from Gold Filled Jewelry
- Thread starter Oneal58
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The way I understand gold fill is think of a thin pipe of gold filled with base metals, thicker than plated materials.
The best advice I can give is read Hokes book, you can get free download from book section, follow her instructions on getting acquainted experiments, and testing of metals in solutions, also search and read the forum most anything you can think of has been discussed in great detail, welcome to the forum, please also read dealing with waste and the safety section, this is just like dealing with electrical work, you need to educate yourself before jumping in understand your risks how to deal with them safely and know what your doing before you begin, just like electrical work you have a lot of studying to do.
The best advice I can give is read Hokes book, you can get free download from book section, follow her instructions on getting acquainted experiments, and testing of metals in solutions, also search and read the forum most anything you can think of has been discussed in great detail, welcome to the forum, please also read dealing with waste and the safety section, this is just like dealing with electrical work, you need to educate yourself before jumping in understand your risks how to deal with them safely and know what your doing before you begin, just like electrical work you have a lot of studying to do.
Hi Butcher, thanks for your reply. I have already read Hokes Book. Several chapters several times. I think I have the basic knowledge of how to go about it. I have all my supplies and protective items. I guess I am just anxious about getting started for some reason. I have a couple rectifiers and plan to use reverse electroylisis on the plated stuff. I seen a video on Youtube that this person laid all his plated things on a copper shelf that he made. He put this copper shelf in a solution and turned on his rectifier. The gold just came right off the plated material. Would you know if he used a stainless steel anode or a gold one? He gave no mention to how many amps he used either. Or the solution he was using. I would like to start with the cheaper electroplated items until I get some experience under my belt. I have looked but cannot find this particular process. I followed his link that he had there on Youtube but he wants to sell the answers that I need. I have spent all the money I need to right now on this project and need to find the answers that doesn't cost me anything right now. Thank you for your advice and answers. Oneal58
martyn111
Well-known member
Using the search engine, top right of your screen, search sulphuric cell, anything and everything you want to know about that youtube video is discussed here, free. Welcome to the forum.
jimmydolittle
Well-known member
I don’t think ammonia nitrate with muriatic is the right formula for nitric. I’ve always used sodium nitrate. I’ve been out of the game for several years, so best let someone with experience tell you. Edit. Sorry, that's what I used for aqua regia.
philddreamer
Well-known member
Sulphuric acid & sodium nitrate, or potassium nitrate for making nitric. Don't use ammonium nitrate, I understand it could cause an explosion.
Oneal, continue reading & learning the do's & don't before you continue.
Some of these chemicals will explode.
Take care & be safe!
Phil
Oneal, continue reading & learning the do's & don't before you continue.
Some of these chemicals will explode.
Take care & be safe!
Phil
Thanks everyone for your help. I have watched 3 videos that Nerdrage has posting in making nitric out of any nitrate based fertilizer. Whether it be sodium nitrate or ammonium nitrate. These 3 videos are on Youtube and look very simple to follow. I have a friend who supplies all the farmers around the county with chemicals for their crops and their farmland difficientcies. He always has a good supply of Urea, Ammonium Nitrate, Ect. Could someone take a quick look at the Nerdrage videos on Youtube and let me know if I am missing something here. From the videos, you can use any nitrate based fertilizer to make nitric. I know I can purchase what I need on Ebay and several other online stores. But if I can make it myself for 30% cost I would much rather go that route. Plus I have already spent a good bit of money in rectifiers, Pyrex Glassware, condensers, Ect;. Could someone verify what I am looking at (Nerdrage Videos) are being understood correctly? It would be appreciated. I have some experience in electroplating and reverse electroplating in an industrial setting. Not the chemical process mind you, but I was the electrician who kept the machinery up and running so I understand the electrical part of the process, but not the chemicals that were used. Thank you so much for your help. Thanks, Oneal58
Geo
Well-known member
ive tried all of them and it does make a weak nitric acid but nothing strong enough to refine with.i used the second video from nurdrage,the one that uses sodium nitrate,hcl acid and copper to dissolve some silver and it was too diluted to digest the silver.i finally used it to make AR and it took about 700 ml of this weak acid in hcl to dissolve 18 grams of 10k.
Thanks Geo for taking the time and answering my question.
I can see that using straight Ammonium Nitrate in the first 2 videos would make weak Nitric as you said but why can't I turn the Ammonium Nitrate into a dried powder after taking out all the insouluables and concentrate it. Concentrate the Nitric after turning it into a liquid and then condensing it by distilling it. Is there any danger if I put the ammonium nitrate through these steps? Then use the 3rd method with a condenser to get commercial strength Nitric. From the NerdRage Video what they got was so strong they had to dilute it to get it to go to work on the copper. I know that NerdRage said to use a Nitrate salt and not a fertilizer but if I clean up the Ammonium Nitrate and turn it into a powder wouldn't it make a stronger Nitric. Has anyone tried this before. I wouldn't be adding anything to the Ammonium Nitrate at first. Is this stuff (Ammonium Nitrate) stable in liquid form also? To be honest with you the reason I am harping on this is that the ammonium nitrate I use will cost me nothing. I very much want to be able to use it, if possible. Thank you for any advice in advance.
Oneal58
I can see that using straight Ammonium Nitrate in the first 2 videos would make weak Nitric as you said but why can't I turn the Ammonium Nitrate into a dried powder after taking out all the insouluables and concentrate it. Concentrate the Nitric after turning it into a liquid and then condensing it by distilling it. Is there any danger if I put the ammonium nitrate through these steps? Then use the 3rd method with a condenser to get commercial strength Nitric. From the NerdRage Video what they got was so strong they had to dilute it to get it to go to work on the copper. I know that NerdRage said to use a Nitrate salt and not a fertilizer but if I clean up the Ammonium Nitrate and turn it into a powder wouldn't it make a stronger Nitric. Has anyone tried this before. I wouldn't be adding anything to the Ammonium Nitrate at first. Is this stuff (Ammonium Nitrate) stable in liquid form also? To be honest with you the reason I am harping on this is that the ammonium nitrate I use will cost me nothing. I very much want to be able to use it, if possible. Thank you for any advice in advance.
Oneal58
Geo
Well-known member
Oneal58 said:
ammonium nitrate is the main ingredient of the bomb that blew up the government building in Oklahoma city (it was ground into dust).you should really consider using a different form of nitrate.if your going to distill it anyway just distill 70% nitric using potassium nitrate and concentrated sulfuric acid.BE WARNED!! i ruined my health doing this and will never be well from it.use safety equipment, never breath fumes.even a little bit damages your lungs and it will never heal. if you can afford it just order some online.
You know, after some thought I think buying what I need to make AR the first few times will not only keep me safe but will show me what reactions I should expect with industrial/lab quality acids. If I have nothing to compare my results to I do not have a learning curve.
So, thank you all for talking me out of cutting corners to the finish line. This personality trait has got me in trouble all my life. The shed where I will be working at is close to my house. My Grandkids are always at my house when they get home from school. I would hate to do something stupid and harm anyone innocent, especially my grands.
I guess my next question I am asking help on is do I need the laboratory grade or would the industrial grade be fine?
Thanks, Oneal58
So, thank you all for talking me out of cutting corners to the finish line. This personality trait has got me in trouble all my life. The shed where I will be working at is close to my house. My Grandkids are always at my house when they get home from school. I would hate to do something stupid and harm anyone innocent, especially my grands.
I guess my next question I am asking help on is do I need the laboratory grade or would the industrial grade be fine?
Thanks, Oneal58
philddreamer
Well-known member
Industrial grade its what I use. Where abouts are you?
That way some one here can point you to a supplier.
Indeed, keep the little ones safe! I told my grandkids to NEVER go to my back yard, so they stay away, because " grandpa is making gold" the say. :lol: .
Phil
That way some one here can point you to a supplier.
Indeed, keep the little ones safe! I told my grandkids to NEVER go to my back yard, so they stay away, because " grandpa is making gold" the say. :lol: .
Phil
philddreamer
Well-known member
Kadriver is from S.C..
Try contacting him; he might be able to help you.
Phil
Try contacting him; he might be able to help you.
Phil
philddreamer
Well-known member
No problem, Bro, that's what we are here from.
I'm just glad I have the opportunity to help others, just like others helped me.
This is a great Forum! 8)
Phil
I'm just glad I have the opportunity to help others, just like others helped me.
This is a great Forum! 8)
Phil
Oneal58,
You can also dissolve the gold powders you recover in hydrochloric acid and adding household bleach.
You could recover the gold using the concentrated sulfuric stripping cell'
Have you visited Laser Steve’s web site? If you have not, look for the link in his posts.
Harold just recently posted some good help for someone working with gold fill.
Copied from Harold’s post:
One does NOT dissolve everything along with the values when there are options. Gold filled is certainly top of the heap where this matter is concerned. Gold filled is generally 95% base metal, all of which is troublesome. Have you given any thought to NOT melting? Think a moment about this idea. First, remove any parts that are magnetic. Avoid including steel in your refining circuit. Also, remove any aluminum should there be any present. The pieces are then heated to dull redness (but NOT melted). That burns off any oils and other substances that can be problematic. You then go after the base metals with dilute nitric acid. The resulting solution will contains traces of silver, along with several other base metals, and will yield thin sheets of the alloyed gold, along with miniscule particles. The material should be subjected to nitric until all base metals have been dissolved. The remaining solids, including the fine sludge that is sure to be a part of the solids, is then gathered in a filter. When dry, it should be incinerated to redness, but, again, do NOT melt. After incineration, screen and go through the material with a magnet. The material should then be given a wash in hot HCl, then rinsed until the rinse water is clear of color. Only then should you dissolve the gold.
It's all in Hoke (except for the HCl wash after incineration, which is one I developed to aid filtration for such material).
You can run gold plated items the same way, although, with the cost of nitric acid, you're better served to strip such items with a sulfuric stripping cell, or to use the AP process that is well discussed on this forum.
Read Hoke! Then read it again. Read until the things I've talked about here make sense to you.
Harold
You can also dissolve the gold powders you recover in hydrochloric acid and adding household bleach.
You could recover the gold using the concentrated sulfuric stripping cell'
Have you visited Laser Steve’s web site? If you have not, look for the link in his posts.
Harold just recently posted some good help for someone working with gold fill.
Copied from Harold’s post:
One does NOT dissolve everything along with the values when there are options. Gold filled is certainly top of the heap where this matter is concerned. Gold filled is generally 95% base metal, all of which is troublesome. Have you given any thought to NOT melting? Think a moment about this idea. First, remove any parts that are magnetic. Avoid including steel in your refining circuit. Also, remove any aluminum should there be any present. The pieces are then heated to dull redness (but NOT melted). That burns off any oils and other substances that can be problematic. You then go after the base metals with dilute nitric acid. The resulting solution will contains traces of silver, along with several other base metals, and will yield thin sheets of the alloyed gold, along with miniscule particles. The material should be subjected to nitric until all base metals have been dissolved. The remaining solids, including the fine sludge that is sure to be a part of the solids, is then gathered in a filter. When dry, it should be incinerated to redness, but, again, do NOT melt. After incineration, screen and go through the material with a magnet. The material should then be given a wash in hot HCl, then rinsed until the rinse water is clear of color. Only then should you dissolve the gold.
It's all in Hoke (except for the HCl wash after incineration, which is one I developed to aid filtration for such material).
You can run gold plated items the same way, although, with the cost of nitric acid, you're better served to strip such items with a sulfuric stripping cell, or to use the AP process that is well discussed on this forum.
Read Hoke! Then read it again. Read until the things I've talked about here make sense to you.
Harold
Hi Butcher,
Thank you so much for this information. It's the route I am going to take. Harold gave the process to me last night which was appreciated. I also appreciate the information you gave me, I am going to put this to use also.
Unless I have overlooked it, which is very possible, you didn't mention what I should do with the items that are magnetic. Or gold plated/filled items with ferrous metals in them? Such as the backs of gold filled watch bands covers/necklaces/brooches, Etc;. But about the watch bands, not the entire watch band mind you, just the tops I have taken off the gold filled bands that have some sort of magnetic ferrous metals on/in them. I find these to be slightly magnetic. And also the gold filled items that are a little magnetic, what I mean is that it's just magnetic enough to let you know that there are ferrous metals involved somewhere on it or in it. I have a strong rare earth magnet that I use so it (magnet) will pretty much attract an item if it has any amount of ferrous metal in it? I also found that sometimes some of this material will lose it's magnetism and drop off by it's self if given a little time while other pieces will not lose it's magnetism. I am guessing that the pieces that drop off after a little time have just been influenced by the non-ferrous pieces that it's laid near to in the box. So, I guess my question is what do I do with the items that do not drop off over time. I also have tried grounding some of the pieces before testing with magnet which doesn't help? Thinking that maybe static electricity was playing a part in this reaction somehow? Excuse me if you have already answered this and I just missed it somehow. But I would hate to discard any 14K gold filled items because there just a little magnetic field around them. When I say a little magnetic what I mean is, if I shake the magnet with some of the Jewelry on it, I will usually end up picking it up off the floor. Not so with all of it, but some of it. Some of it has to be pried off the magnet but seems to have a thick coat of gold filled or plated gold on it also. I have tested the gold filled/plated watch band tops that are magnetic and in fact they are gold filled. Before I started on this project I tested all my gold before I sold it on ebay. Probably hundred or so lots with many, many pieces in each lot I sold. I have sold many lots of karat gold over the last 12 or so years now but never gold filled/plated items. I got to where I could tell if an item was gold filled or plated by just watching the reaction when I applied the acid to the gold mark left on the stone. So, the gold is there but just on top of/in/around ferrous metal of some kind. Thanks in advance Butcher for your help and thank all of you (Harold) (Geo) (Phil) and many more who have been helping me. I appreciate all of you and love this site. Hopefully one day I will know enough to return the favor to others like myself. I can't seem to find this answer in Hoke's Book but it is very possible I did overlook the information, or just don't remember reading it?
Oneal58
Thank you so much for this information. It's the route I am going to take. Harold gave the process to me last night which was appreciated. I also appreciate the information you gave me, I am going to put this to use also.
Unless I have overlooked it, which is very possible, you didn't mention what I should do with the items that are magnetic. Or gold plated/filled items with ferrous metals in them? Such as the backs of gold filled watch bands covers/necklaces/brooches, Etc;. But about the watch bands, not the entire watch band mind you, just the tops I have taken off the gold filled bands that have some sort of magnetic ferrous metals on/in them. I find these to be slightly magnetic. And also the gold filled items that are a little magnetic, what I mean is that it's just magnetic enough to let you know that there are ferrous metals involved somewhere on it or in it. I have a strong rare earth magnet that I use so it (magnet) will pretty much attract an item if it has any amount of ferrous metal in it? I also found that sometimes some of this material will lose it's magnetism and drop off by it's self if given a little time while other pieces will not lose it's magnetism. I am guessing that the pieces that drop off after a little time have just been influenced by the non-ferrous pieces that it's laid near to in the box. So, I guess my question is what do I do with the items that do not drop off over time. I also have tried grounding some of the pieces before testing with magnet which doesn't help? Thinking that maybe static electricity was playing a part in this reaction somehow? Excuse me if you have already answered this and I just missed it somehow. But I would hate to discard any 14K gold filled items because there just a little magnetic field around them. When I say a little magnetic what I mean is, if I shake the magnet with some of the Jewelry on it, I will usually end up picking it up off the floor. Not so with all of it, but some of it. Some of it has to be pried off the magnet but seems to have a thick coat of gold filled or plated gold on it also. I have tested the gold filled/plated watch band tops that are magnetic and in fact they are gold filled. Before I started on this project I tested all my gold before I sold it on ebay. Probably hundred or so lots with many, many pieces in each lot I sold. I have sold many lots of karat gold over the last 12 or so years now but never gold filled/plated items. I got to where I could tell if an item was gold filled or plated by just watching the reaction when I applied the acid to the gold mark left on the stone. So, the gold is there but just on top of/in/around ferrous metal of some kind. Thanks in advance Butcher for your help and thank all of you (Harold) (Geo) (Phil) and many more who have been helping me. I appreciate all of you and love this site. Hopefully one day I will know enough to return the favor to others like myself. I can't seem to find this answer in Hoke's Book but it is very possible I did overlook the information, or just don't remember reading it?
Oneal58
Very recently Harold posted a method to process the gold fill, he discussed how to deal with the magnetic portion of the material, I am pretty sure it was in a post with a title about gold fill, I do not remember all details but do remember incineration was a part of the process and running a magnet over powders.
When Harold suggests something listening to him, and following his advice you can not go wrong (well even if you got stuck he would be there to pull you out).
Look into the other posts about gold fill.
If you are new to this, spend time studying until you understand the process you choose and are fairly confident you can do it, many of us process some high value scrap when we first begin to learn (before we really have a good understanding, then we look back and say if only I had it all to do over again we would do it differently or better with less lose.
If you’re new to this study Hokes book getting doing the getting acquainted
Experiments, and also learning and testing of solutions, you can learn to make stannous chloride here on the forum.
Which process or chemicals you choose you should have some experience with before using them on high value scrap, sometimes it may be better to put your high value scrap up and experiment on lower value scrap.
This is why I normally recommend some one learn with memory fingers.
Read as much as you can, experiment on small lots, till you prove your process,
A magnet inside a plastic bag is what we use when panning for gold, it make separating the magnetic materials from the magnet easier.
Also I would put the magnetic materials the magnet picked up in my stockpot as it may also collect some gold powders or some gold could be mixed with Iron.
When Harold suggests something listening to him, and following his advice you can not go wrong (well even if you got stuck he would be there to pull you out).
Look into the other posts about gold fill.
If you are new to this, spend time studying until you understand the process you choose and are fairly confident you can do it, many of us process some high value scrap when we first begin to learn (before we really have a good understanding, then we look back and say if only I had it all to do over again we would do it differently or better with less lose.
If you’re new to this study Hokes book getting doing the getting acquainted
Experiments, and also learning and testing of solutions, you can learn to make stannous chloride here on the forum.
Which process or chemicals you choose you should have some experience with before using them on high value scrap, sometimes it may be better to put your high value scrap up and experiment on lower value scrap.
This is why I normally recommend some one learn with memory fingers.
Read as much as you can, experiment on small lots, till you prove your process,
A magnet inside a plastic bag is what we use when panning for gold, it make separating the magnetic materials from the magnet easier.
Also I would put the magnetic materials the magnet picked up in my stockpot as it may also collect some gold powders or some gold could be mixed with Iron.
Hi Butcher, will do as advised. I am doing exactly what you recommended. I am starting with the low end materials that I have accumulated over the years and saving my Karat material now untill I fully understand the process in my mind before I refine it.
I understand completely what you are saying and it's great advice. I told myself when I got to the point of being able to do this I was not going to take any shortcuts, none. Too dangerous for one thing and can be very wasteful if you don't know what you are doing first. So, I am starting at scratch and am going to climb the ladder, one step at a time. I want to be a very competent refiner hopefully down the road with a lot of studying. Thanks Butcher, Oneal58
I understand completely what you are saying and it's great advice. I told myself when I got to the point of being able to do this I was not going to take any shortcuts, none. Too dangerous for one thing and can be very wasteful if you don't know what you are doing first. So, I am starting at scratch and am going to climb the ladder, one step at a time. I want to be a very competent refiner hopefully down the road with a lot of studying. Thanks Butcher, Oneal58
