Risk-Free Cost-Saving Refining Solution: What Say You?
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stick around here and read as much as you can you will find much better methods on this forum and if you want to use that method they are selling you can make one and use storebought fertilizers and common chemicals and save yourself money and you wont be tied to some company who pulls the strings, those prices for an bucket and some fertilyzer reminds me of someone fishing for suckers. :shock:
A
Anonymous
Guest
does any one have plans to make shors sys. 600 is to much to pay for it thanks in advance
patnor1011
Well-known member
why do you want shor system while all info how to process and refine is here on this forum and for free?
Let me preface my comments with the fact that I have never used a Shor system for refining, I have always been in a high production environment where aqua regia was used.
The Shor system is a modification of a cell called a fizzer cell. A fizzer cell uses hydrochloric acid and electric current to dissolve gold alloy and leave it in solution. Fizzer cells are a convenient way to make gold chloride for electrolytic gold recovery often used as a 2 step process in conjunction with the Miller process of chlorination.
The fizzer cell uses hydrochloric acid and the Shor system uses salt. The problem is the salt has to be dissolved in water so the pH tends to rise as a result of the buildup of hydroxide from the outgassing of hydrogen. Shor has overcome this with a patented buffer to maintain the pH. Other than that the resultant solution is the same as you would get from an acid peroxide dissolution.
Unfortunately there is little interest in larger refiners breaking down Shor's secret buffer so his little secret keeps making him a fortune because it is necessary and it is costly. (it probably isn't costly but they charge a lot)
I have set up fizzer cells for medium sized refiners in populated areas to digest gold bullion without nitric and the associated red fumes. It does a good job but has some shortcomings which can be worked out.
First you have to cast the gold into anodes.
The anodes dissolve in direct proportion to the current flow around their shape so you end up with chunks which have to be re-cast into new anodes. I have had a dog bone shaped anode mold made to minimize this issue and it has worked well. I have digested as much as 1 kilogram of karat gold in 1 gallon of hydrochloric this way and the system I set up can handle 20 kilos of digestion without much operator attention.
Since hydrochloric is easy to acquire (easier than nitric) and everything else is the same as aqua regia, (filtering and precipitating.....no nitric to kill) the system not a huge shift from aqua regia refining.
The down side is the need to cast the anodes so you need a decent melt capacity. The up side is the need for air pollution control is greatly reduced.
The Shor system is a modification of a cell called a fizzer cell. A fizzer cell uses hydrochloric acid and electric current to dissolve gold alloy and leave it in solution. Fizzer cells are a convenient way to make gold chloride for electrolytic gold recovery often used as a 2 step process in conjunction with the Miller process of chlorination.
The fizzer cell uses hydrochloric acid and the Shor system uses salt. The problem is the salt has to be dissolved in water so the pH tends to rise as a result of the buildup of hydroxide from the outgassing of hydrogen. Shor has overcome this with a patented buffer to maintain the pH. Other than that the resultant solution is the same as you would get from an acid peroxide dissolution.
Unfortunately there is little interest in larger refiners breaking down Shor's secret buffer so his little secret keeps making him a fortune because it is necessary and it is costly. (it probably isn't costly but they charge a lot)
I have set up fizzer cells for medium sized refiners in populated areas to digest gold bullion without nitric and the associated red fumes. It does a good job but has some shortcomings which can be worked out.
First you have to cast the gold into anodes.
The anodes dissolve in direct proportion to the current flow around their shape so you end up with chunks which have to be re-cast into new anodes. I have had a dog bone shaped anode mold made to minimize this issue and it has worked well. I have digested as much as 1 kilogram of karat gold in 1 gallon of hydrochloric this way and the system I set up can handle 20 kilos of digestion without much operator attention.
Since hydrochloric is easy to acquire (easier than nitric) and everything else is the same as aqua regia, (filtering and precipitating.....no nitric to kill) the system not a huge shift from aqua regia refining.
The down side is the need to cast the anodes so you need a decent melt capacity. The up side is the need for air pollution control is greatly reduced.
MountainMike
Member
4METAL would you expand on your building of a 20 KG "fizzer" cell?
"First you have to cast the gold into anodes.
The anodes dissolve in direct proportion to the current flow around their shape so you end up with chunks which have to be re-cast into new anodes. I have had a dog bone shaped anode mold made to minimize this issue and it has worked well. I have digested as much as 1 kilogram of karat gold in 1 gallon of hydrochloric this way and the system I set up can handle 20 kilos of digestion without much operator attention.
Since hydrochloric is easy to acquire (easier than nitric) and everything else is the same as aqua regia, (filtering and precipitating.....no nitric to kill) the system not a huge shift from aqua regia refining.
The down side is the need to cast the anodes so you need a decent melt capacity. The up side is the need for air pollution control is greatly reduced."
All that sounds very do-able and desireable. I have a #30 crucible furnace. My feed material will be plated material Will the base material negatively effect the operation of the "fizzer cell" ?
Thank you for your time. Mike
"First you have to cast the gold into anodes.
The anodes dissolve in direct proportion to the current flow around their shape so you end up with chunks which have to be re-cast into new anodes. I have had a dog bone shaped anode mold made to minimize this issue and it has worked well. I have digested as much as 1 kilogram of karat gold in 1 gallon of hydrochloric this way and the system I set up can handle 20 kilos of digestion without much operator attention.
Since hydrochloric is easy to acquire (easier than nitric) and everything else is the same as aqua regia, (filtering and precipitating.....no nitric to kill) the system not a huge shift from aqua regia refining.
The down side is the need to cast the anodes so you need a decent melt capacity. The up side is the need for air pollution control is greatly reduced."
All that sounds very do-able and desireable. I have a #30 crucible furnace. My feed material will be plated material Will the base material negatively effect the operation of the "fizzer cell" ?
Thank you for your time. Mike
A fizzer cell is designed to make gold chloride, the purer the gold the better it works. Your feedstock will be at the basement end of the proposition as you will be digesting mostly base metals.
You also seem to have a good quantity of this material, judging from your mentioning of a #30 crucible furnace. To place this scrap into bar form, might I say big bar form from a #30 crucible, will do you more harm than good. The gold will be diluted in the base metal and recovery will become more difficult. As they exist now the plating is concentrated at the surface, this scenario calls for stripping, which is what a professional refiner would be inclined to do.
A sulfuric stripping cell would prevent you from putting all of the base metal into solution and is worthy of consideration. And if the material is copper based, you could melt them into anodes and make a copper plating bath, now you recover pure copper and PM slimes for refining.
It all comes down to a few questions, how much material are you talking about? and what is the base metal? You see, if the world was full of risk free cost saving refining solutions, we would all be wealthy.
You also seem to have a good quantity of this material, judging from your mentioning of a #30 crucible furnace. To place this scrap into bar form, might I say big bar form from a #30 crucible, will do you more harm than good. The gold will be diluted in the base metal and recovery will become more difficult. As they exist now the plating is concentrated at the surface, this scenario calls for stripping, which is what a professional refiner would be inclined to do.
A sulfuric stripping cell would prevent you from putting all of the base metal into solution and is worthy of consideration. And if the material is copper based, you could melt them into anodes and make a copper plating bath, now you recover pure copper and PM slimes for refining.
It all comes down to a few questions, how much material are you talking about? and what is the base metal? You see, if the world was full of risk free cost saving refining solutions, we would all be wealthy.
MountainMike
Member
4METAL, thank you for your reply, logical and well stated.
Your analogy about my feedstock being “the basement end” of material to use in the fizzer cell is certainly right on.
My interest in the fizzer cell centers on the use of hydrochloric, inexpensive and easily obtainable, and your statement, “the system is not a huge shift from aqua regia refining”.
I do have several hundred’s of pounds of plated material. My mention of a #30 crucible furnace was as reference to the possible use in your 20 kilos system. I have smaller.
Here is a brief history of my working with this material:
Copper/sulfuric cell, worked well for a while. This type cell requires 96%+ copper feedstock. My material is about 85 /90 percent copper, the rest mainly nickel and iron, some tin and lead. The electrolyte would fowl up rather quickly. Used the Thum cell design. Experimented some with the Moebius cell design, too involved.
Cyanide, early on I made a decision not to use this.
Sulfuric stripping cell is a great system, works as advertised. My system is a 7 gallon metal tank (30# propane tank with top cut out) used as the cathode. As anode I use a plater’s pvc small parts dipping basket, loaded with 3 to 6 pounds of material, and a electric buss bar as the contact point, it would be moved to different points to ensure contact to all parts. Operated at about 25-30 amps and ~10 volts. My issue was heat, probably because of the multiple loose parts in the basket and not always making contact so some material was not stripped, others appeared burned.
Suffice it to say I was not satisfied. Especially since occasionally there were unmarked pieces of gold-filled in the mix. My feeling is AR was the best way for most of this material. Which brings us back to my interest in your fizzer cell innovations. The benefits seem overwhelming, HCL is inexpensive, available, no nitric to kill, and air pollution control is greatly reduced. A system that will allow me to digest 1 kilogram of material (even if it is junk) in 1 gallon of hydrochloric has to be investigated, hence my request for more information.
If you feel this is not of general interest you may email me. Thank you. ~Mike
Your analogy about my feedstock being “the basement end” of material to use in the fizzer cell is certainly right on.
My interest in the fizzer cell centers on the use of hydrochloric, inexpensive and easily obtainable, and your statement, “the system is not a huge shift from aqua regia refining”.
I do have several hundred’s of pounds of plated material. My mention of a #30 crucible furnace was as reference to the possible use in your 20 kilos system. I have smaller.
Here is a brief history of my working with this material:
Copper/sulfuric cell, worked well for a while. This type cell requires 96%+ copper feedstock. My material is about 85 /90 percent copper, the rest mainly nickel and iron, some tin and lead. The electrolyte would fowl up rather quickly. Used the Thum cell design. Experimented some with the Moebius cell design, too involved.
Cyanide, early on I made a decision not to use this.
Sulfuric stripping cell is a great system, works as advertised. My system is a 7 gallon metal tank (30# propane tank with top cut out) used as the cathode. As anode I use a plater’s pvc small parts dipping basket, loaded with 3 to 6 pounds of material, and a electric buss bar as the contact point, it would be moved to different points to ensure contact to all parts. Operated at about 25-30 amps and ~10 volts. My issue was heat, probably because of the multiple loose parts in the basket and not always making contact so some material was not stripped, others appeared burned.
Suffice it to say I was not satisfied. Especially since occasionally there were unmarked pieces of gold-filled in the mix. My feeling is AR was the best way for most of this material. Which brings us back to my interest in your fizzer cell innovations. The benefits seem overwhelming, HCL is inexpensive, available, no nitric to kill, and air pollution control is greatly reduced. A system that will allow me to digest 1 kilogram of material (even if it is junk) in 1 gallon of hydrochloric has to be investigated, hence my request for more information.
If you feel this is not of general interest you may email me. Thank you. ~Mike
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