Silver Cell Capacity

[kadriver]

The amount of silver I have to refine has increased.

I am going to make two - 1 liter silver cells to run at the same time.

Each will be completely seperate with their own converted CPU power supplies.

This is the only way I can think of to increase the output of pure silver.

It usually takes about 3 or 4 days for one cell to make 25 to 27 troy ounces of pure silver crystals.

With two cells running at the same time, I expect to double my output.

I have all the necessary items needed to construct another cell and set them side by side.

The amount of 925 and sterling silver I expect to get will be about 12 to 15 lbs of clean metal every two weeks or so.

Here is the question for the forum:

Does this sound like the most efficient way to increase my output?

The cell I use is patterned after lazersteve's video. Is there a larger setup that would increase output and decrease the time required to form the silver crystals?

Could those on this forum who have larger setups (12 to 15 lbs bimonthly) post some pictures of larger capacity silver cells? I'm not talking industrial size - but a size suitable for a home refiner.

And can someone tell from looking at the photo why my electrolyte has turned this dark yellow color? What in the world is in there?

Thank you - kadriver

 

[samuel-a]

And can someone tell from looking at the photo why my electrolyte has turned this dark yellow color? What in the world is in there?

PGM's most likely...
SnCl is your friend.

 

[philddreamer]

Peter, you can try experimenting with the same set up of half a gallon that GSP help me put together. You might find some information that might help here:
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11281

Because, for higher deposition, you'll need to expose more surface area per sq. in. of anode to the cathode. Most cells I've seen posted only have one side facing the cathode. Mine has both sides of the anode facing cathodes thus, doubling the surface area with just one anode. The anodes are 2"x2.5" = 5sq. inches/side x 2 sides = 10 sq. inches; & I use 2 anodes which = 20sq. inches of surface exposed. How much surface area does your cell has?
This could give you an idea of how much you could increase you rate of deposition.

Phil

 

[Harold_V]

And can someone tell from looking at the photo why my electrolyte has turned this dark yellow color? What in the world is in there?

My money says it's palladium. A test with DMG or stannous should yield conclusive results.

With the amount showing in solution, it's entirely possible you are co-depositing some palladium, assuming that's what is determined to be the pollutant.

I'm quite impressed that there is no copper showing. You've doing an admirable job of cementing your silver.

Harold

 

[kadriver]

I am going to harvest the silver from this cell later today.

I have no experience with palladium at all.

If palladium is co-depositing, then will it be enought to reduce my silver down below 999?

How will I be able to tell if palladium is co-depositing?

This now has me concerned.

What is DMG?

kadriver

 

[philddreamer]

"How will I be able to tell if palladium is co-depositing?"

Peter, a thought would be to send a 1 oz sample to a fellow member that assays...

 

[metatp]

What is DMG?kadriver

dimethylglyoxime

I have some in powder form. I was told (on this forum) that it is best to dissolve it in ethanol. I tried water and I tried ispropyl alcohol, but could only get a small amount dissolve where heated. Once it cooled, it precipitated out. It still worked though. Below is a thread that may help. You need very little so I can give you some of the powder if you like.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6777&p=61924&hilit=+ethanol+dmg#p61924

Regards,
Tom

 

[goldenchild]

How will I be able to tell if palladium is co-depositing?kadriver

Simply digest a 1 ounce sample and test with stannous. If there is even a possibility that Pd has co-deposited you will have to process your silver again anyway. If the electrolyte turned that color you should reprocess your silver even if a stannous test shows negative for Pd, or any other PM for that matter. It's obvious there is some type of contaminant. Either way you look at it your best bet would be to make some new anode bars and process with fresh electrolyte.

 

[kadriver]

I'll digest (dissolve 1 oz in nitric) and test with stannous.

Then I will make new electrolyte and anode bars and run it all back through the cell again.

Thanks for the guidance - kadriver

 

[philddreamer]

I agree, the color of the electrolyte is too "strong". Better to make anodes a run again thru the cell.
I did a test running sterling anodes thru the cell, but the solution turned blue in less than a day, so I just re-melted & ran them thru again in fresh electrolyte. Now, the second anodes looked much cleaner than the first cemented ones, but I don't thick I had .999's.

Can't you do a stannous test from a drop of the electrolyte?

Phil

 

[metatp]

If there was a little copper in the electrolyte, I don't know if you would have notice the yellow much. The electrolyte would be a little green.

 

[kadriver]

I thought about just doing a test with a drop of the yellow electrolyte.

I will do it tomorrow and post the results.

I am going to make all new clean components and cast the silver crystals into clean anode bars and re-do it all.

This should be some really clean silver when I get done with it.

Thanks - kadriver

 

[Harold_V]

If palladium is co-depositing, then will it be enought to reduce my silver down below 999?

It certainly has that potential.

How will I be able to tell if palladium is co-depositing?

Wash it well, then use some to make your next batch of electrolyte. If there's palladium present, it will be revealed by DMG. It takes very little to shift the color.

This now has me concerned.

It should. Not only because you may be producing less than 3 n's, but the contaminant is worth far more money than is the silver.
Don't despair. You can rerun the crystals without melting. simply pour them to your filter and place a contact on top. Another anode will serve perfectly well. They'll part quite well, leaving behind the palladium (assuming that's what is present). A trace will go in to your electrolyte once again, but it won't co-deposit unless you deplete the silver, or the electrolyte becomes too heavily contaminated.

I went through this very issue. I dealt with it as I described. No big deal.

What is DMG?

Dimethylglyoxime. No refiner should be without it. It is difficult to dissolve in water, but it does dissolve. I used the process found in Hoke's book to make my solution.

DMG is used to test for palladium, and is also functional for testing for nickel, although the solution tested must be basic. Nickel yields a beautiful pink reaction. It is VERY sensitive, so even minute traces of palladium will respond with a canary yellow precipitate.

You likely noticed a considerable amount of black slime in your filter after parting the anode, yes?

Harold

 

[kadriver]

This is all brand new to me. I found the chemical on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dimethylglyoxime-Reagent-98-25g-/330541245877?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf5cb25b5

Is this the right item, and is that a decent price.

I use stump-out to drop my gold. It is sodium metabisulfite as per the MSDS sheet. I get it at Home Depot for $5 a pound.

Can this chemical - DMG - be found in a similar manner (bought locally under a different name).

I guess I will have to start looking at the other metals, not just gold & silver.

I will get out my copy of Hoke and start reading about these other metals and asking some questions.

Thank you Harold and all the others who have responded to this post for guiding me with this problem.

I'm glad I didn't just wash the silver and let it go.

Thanks to all - kadriver

 

[qst42know]

I bought mine from this seller with no issues. You can up the quantity to reduce the shipping cost.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dimethylglyoxime-10-grams-Chugaevs-Reagent-/270826103309?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0e7e620d

 

[HAuCl4]

A simple way out, if palladium is the contaminant which it seems to be, is this:
When the color gets "too dark" (subjective), get the liquid in a separate bucket, and sprinkle a little zinc dust, just enough to make the solution transparent again. If you sprinkle too much then also silver will cement, get the exact amount by trial and error on a small sample of the solution. After you have done this, the dust in the beaker will be mostly palladium with little silver, and you can put the clear liquid back in the cell. 8)

 

[metatp]

I bought mine from this seller with no issues. You can up the quantity to reduce the shipping cost.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dimethylglyoxime-10-grams-Chugaevs-Reagent-/270826103309?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0e7e620d

I bought mine from this guy as well with no issues. I can give you 10g if you want. I don't need all that I have.

Tom

 

[kadriver]

Thanks for those tips on the DGM. I have ordered some.

I got my silver cell all cleaned up and lit-off. I made new electrolyte, but used the same filter bag that was already full of anode bars.

I suspended the filter bag in a container and rinsed it and the anodes with plenty of distilled water and allowed it to drain completely.

The outside of the filter (double bagged actually) looked clean and white.

I am going to save that bottle of yellow electrolyte to experiment with. I want to know how to get the palladium, if any, out of that solution.

Sounds like powdered zinc in the ticket.

When I get the DGM in I will do some tests. I will test it tonight with SnCl.

I am thankful to this forum for the expert guidance that I have recieved with this latest cell contamination.

There is about 500ml of silver crystals. In the past, this volume has yielded about 25 troy ounces of fine silver.

I am going to run it all back through the cell.

Harold said to just put the crystals back into the filter basket. Is there an advantage in processing it this way?

Pouring anode bars seems more convenient. But if the crystals will process faster than bars, then I will run the crystals as they are.

I guess I will save the gas to have to melt and pour the bars.

Thanks for looking - kadriver

 

[philddreamer]

I precipitated Ag, Pd & other metals from my silver nitrate with SMB once.
Your Ag nitrate solution might have only Pd contamination, @ least we hope, than the one I had, so maybe test a bit with SMB.

Question... How many onces did you really run thru that solution?

 

[kadriver]

That yellow electrolyte had about 75 troy ounces through it.

I tested the solution with stannous chloride tonight and it was positive. But for what?

I have never seen stannous chloride react with anything other than AuCl.

I know there can't be any gold dissolved in the electrolyte.

Maybe this is palladium. This is my first experience with that metal if it is.

How did palladium get in with my silver - I cement 100% of my silver anode bars.

I guess it must be carried by the silver - and then it cements out with the silver?

I dissolved some more 925 and older sterling dishes tonight - about 800 grams.

The resulting silver nitrate solution was quite green looking - and the silver cemented out real fine - the finest powder I have ever seen - almost like real fine mud.

Just goes to show how much more I have to learn.

kadriver