Wannabe Smith here- Helloooo

[Thechemicals]

Hello, i found this site thru a search for a question i had been trying to get the answer for months, and still unsure.

See im a stock trader and am also heavily invested in physical silver. While buying my bullion i discovered a video about sterling silver and its 7% copper and other metals content. I started to research what i can do to remove the copper and other metals from the sterling to create pure silver for my foundry.

Did i mention i am a smith? Yes and im also a chemical operation soldier for the US Army though, i know very little about refinement and finishing.

If anyone can help me further with my goals i would likely give you a great big handshake.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Best thing to do is start reading in the silver section of the forum.
Pay attention to the chemicals mentioned. It can be confusing but a lot of good people here to help you out.

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=50

 

[Oz]

Ok, if you bought bullion why did you get something less than .999 fine? Now if you bought sterling silver scrap and are calling it bullion I can see why you may wish to refine it.

Saying you are a smith gives me a direction, but there is a huge difference between a blacksmith and a silversmith.

You need to describe a bit better what you have and what you wish to do for anyone here to help you.

By they way, I commend you on taking physical delivery of any precious metal especially if you are a paper guy used to dealing with stocks.

 

[Thechemicals]

Ok, if you bought bullion why did you get something less than .999 fine? Now if you bought sterling silver scrap and are calling it bullion I can see why you may wish to refine it.

Saying you are a smith gives me a direction, but there is a huge difference between a blacksmith and a silversmith.

You need to describe a bit better what you have and what you wish to do for anyone here to help you.

By they way, I commend you on taking physical delivery of any precious metal especially if you are a paper guy used to dealing with stocks.

Thanks, the poster above you helped me with exactly what i need. I mentioned i buy bullion and its always .999 from Hereaus and Mints that are backed by reputation. I also test the metals via ping test and rubbing the metals. I have never bought sterling silver in my life, possibly because im from the newer generation where youll find stainless steel before youd find the more precious metals in household and basic items.

I just figured i can cast pure silver from sterling if i learn how to do safe and basic separation from the metals to remove the copper/other metals from it. I am not a blacksmith, i have a small operation and not much accessibility of resources. I do however,have expendable money to delve into this exciting chemistry. In the end, i am a business man, and cutting out as many middlemen as possible will help me maximize my gains, for my goal: getting pure silver from sterling. I also am interesting in creating bullion of brass/copper/aluminum.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

I also am interesting in creating bullion of brass/copper/aluminum.

It would be better to leave these metals as they are because the energy to melt them will take out your profit. Loosing proposition in small scale.

 

[goldsilverpro]

You can't remove the copper by melting. There are only 2 practical ways that I can think of to remove the copper from the sterling. Both have been covered in great detail on this forum.

(1) Dissolve the sterling in nitric acid and recover the silver by cementation on copper bars. The silver will end up, at best, about 99% pure.

(2) Run the sterling through a silver cell. This can produce 99.99% silver if it is done right. The problem with this is that sterling is only 92.5% pure and contains 7.5% copper. In general, the higher the silver purity going into the cell, the less maintenance is required. Sterling takes an enormous amount of cell maintenance.

To considerably reduce the cell maintenance needed, you could first do (1), then melt this 99% silver into bars and run it through the cell (2).

No matter what you do, the refining of sterling silver is expensive.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

You can't remove the copper by melting. There are only 2 practical ways that I can think of to remove the copper from the sterling. Both have been covered in great detail on this forum.

(1) Dissolve the sterling in nitric acid and recover the silver by cementation on copper bars. The silver will end up, at best, about 99% pure.

(2) Run the sterling through a silver cell. This can produce 99.99% silver if it is done right. The problem with this is that sterling is only 92.5% pure and contains 7.5% copper. In general, the higher the silver purity going into the cell, the less maintenance is required. Sterling takes an enormous amount of cell maintenance.

To considerably reduce the cell maintenance needed, you could first do (1), then melt this 99% silver into bars and run it through the cell (2).

No matter what you do, the refining of sterling silver is expensive.

GSP there are also a couple of threads here on deplating the silver from the copper base with our spent chemicls. Trying to nail down the specifics on that in the next few days hopefully. Or do you have this process and can expalin it? I think this is just being done with the AP residues from what I have gathered so far.

 

[Thechemicals]

You can't remove the copper by melting. There are only 2 practical ways that I can think of to remove the copper from the sterling. Both have been covered in great detail on this forum.

(1) Dissolve the sterling in nitric acid and recover the silver by cementation on copper bars. The silver will end up, at best, about 99% pure.

(2) Run the sterling through a silver cell. This can produce 99.99% silver if it is done right. The problem with this is that sterling is only 92.5% pure and contains 7.5% copper. In general, the higher the silver purity going into the cell, the less maintenance is required. Sterling takes an enormous amount of cell maintenance.

To considerably reduce the cell maintenance needed, you could first do (1), then melt this 99% silver into bars and run it through the cell (2).

No matter what you do, the refining of sterling silver is expensive.

i fail to see where the expensive part is for the first procedure. I bought battery acid (1 pint) for $5 and plant food for (32 oz) $4.50. all other materials i already have.
The only real expense is a melt furnace and a cast mold which i have.

Is the copper useless after this procedure? i suppose losing the copper can be a constant expense but copper is resuable via aluminum foil drop. 1 pound of fine silver made from this procedure after casting into bars/bullion can make you over $200. Please explain where the expensive part is for this.

 

[goldsilverpro]

i fail to see where the expensive part is for the first procedure.

It's a matter of semantics. I stated that refining sterling silver was expensive. Part (1) is a recovery method and not a refining method. Refined (re-fined, purified) silver must be at least 999 Fine - think about what the word re-fine means. Part (1) won't bring it to that purity. To re-fine the silver from (1), you must purify it - step (2). Anything less than 999 Fine must be refined by someone to enter it back in to the marketplace. In many applications, it must be 999.9 Fine.

 

[Thechemicals]

i fail to see where the expensive part is for the first procedure.

It's a matter of semantics. I stated that refining sterling silver was expensive. Part (1) is a recovery method and not a refining method. Refined (re-fined, purified) silver must be at least 999 Fine - think about what the word re-fine means. Part (1) won't bring it to that purity. To re-fine the silver from (1), you must purify it - step (2). Anything less than 999 Fine must be refined by someone to enter it back in to the marketplace. In many applications, it must be 999.9 Fine.

I have only been a member a few days so i will stick around to learn more. I read your words and become riddled, a strange position to be in in a chemist forum.

This website and its online book reads, and shorinternationals methods all indicate the refinement of silver using acid. The method of recovering and separating for fine silver 99% or better. The finished material is fine silver used for melting. Ultimatly this finish product must be tested, ptionally certified iso, no doubt about that.

Everything ive read in this community and shor lead to the answer of recovering a material i want, without the materials that had been. refine,melt,finish, test for 4n and wala.

black and white methods and answers are what im looking for. No grey areas. If the finished product is flawed, either the process failed or user error. I can only blame myself for one of the two. If the process is ineffective when done properly, then i need to know this now: Do the methods on this website work? thanks for your help

 

[Barren Realms 007]

i fail to see where the expensive part is for the first procedure.

It's a matter of semantics. I stated that refining sterling silver was expensive. Part (1) is a recovery method and not a refining method. Refined (re-fined, purified) silver must be at least 999 Fine - think about what the word re-fine means. Part (1) won't bring it to that purity. To re-fine the silver from (1), you must purify it - step (2). Anything less than 999 Fine must be refined by someone to enter it back in to the marketplace. In many applications, it must be 999.9 Fine.

I have only been a member a few days so i will stick around to learn more. I read your words and become riddled, a strange position to be in in a chemist forum.

This website and its online book reads, and shorinternationals methods all indicate the refinement of silver using acid. The method of recovering and separating for fine silver 99% or better. The finished material is fine silver used for melting. Ultimatly this finish product must be tested, ptionally certified iso, no doubt about that.

Everything ive read in this community and shor lead to the answer of recovering a material i want, without the materials that had been. refine,melt,finish, test for 4n and wala.

black and white methods and answers are what im looking for. No grey areas. If the finished product is flawed, either the process failed or user error. I can only blame myself for one of the two. If the process is ineffective when done properly, then i need to know this now: Do the methods on this website work? thanks for your help

It is all black and white here, the only grey area is the individual doing the process or the individual that might be instructing you. Read a lot here and you will find what you want. Just might take you some effort and time.

Here is a link on Shore here on the board. Do some investigating on them thru this search.
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=Shore&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

As soon as you think you have your process down something will change that is out of your control or knowledge and will sit up and bite you in the A**. BE paitent and humble and you will find lots of help here.

 

[goldsilverpro]

I read your words and become riddled, a strange position to be in in a chemist forum.

I don't really know what you mean by that statement. I will assume that you were puzzled by what I said. When asked a question, I try to gear my answer as to how much knowledge I think the person has. Since you are a stock trader and have taken possession of much physical silver, I just assumed that you would know what basic bullion terms like "Fineness" or "Fine Silver" mean. For your sake, I would hope your bullion is stamped "Fine Silver", 999 Silver, or 99.9% silver - or better.

You want black and white answers. Here they are.

(1) Fineness. This is a term that expresses the purity of gold or silver in parts per 1000. It is used internationally in the bullion trade. If you have a 1000 oz bar that is 999 Fine, it would contain 999 oz of silver and 1 oz of impurities. The expression, 999 Fine, is identical to saying, 99.9% pure. Sometimes, the term, 3 nines fine or just 3 nines, is used to express the same purity. A 1000 oz bar that is 999.9 Fine (99.99% pure = 4 nines fine) contains 999.9 oz of silver and 0.1 oz of impurities. Similarly, a 1000 oz bar that is 999.5 Fine (99.95% pure = 3 nines five fine) contains 999.5 oz of silver and 0.5 oz of impurities. European sterling is often marked by it's fineness, 925. It contains 925 parts per 1000 silver and 75 parts per 1000 copper.

(2) Fine Silver. By some sort of international agreement of industry, the term "Fine Silver" refers to silver that is at least 999 Fine. The spot silver price refers to silver that is at least 999 Fine. Silver of lesser purity has a value less than the spot price because someone must still go through the expensive process of purifying it. Look up the definition of "Fine Silver" on the internet. Most every one says 999 Fine or 99.9% pure - same thing.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fine+silver+definition&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS259US259&ie=UTF-8&aq=2&oq=

Fine Gold is different in that it must be at least 999.5 Fine. The spot price of gold refers to gold that is at least 999.5 Fine.

These purity figures are not arbitrary. They are the purities that are usually required in order to make new products, by industry, from these metals.

(3) Refine. This means to re-fine it (make it Fine again), or to purify it back to Fine Silver (or to Fine Gold). Unfortunately, the term, refine, is often incorrectly used when a person actually means "recover". As far as silver is concerned, most in the trade would define "Recovery" as a process that separates it from it's impurities to a point where it's purity is less than 999 Fine. "Recovered" silver must still be "Refined" in order for it to enter back into the international marketplace.

Hope this helps.

Chris

 

[Thechemicals]

I am well past the bullion 101 course. I am successful in my field and my silver/gold/plat bullion are unquestionable in content.

I say again; I am a beginner at smithing, and a novice in chemistry. I am here for the application of the method that brought me to this community- The dissolving of sterling and conversion into fine silver. This is all i need help with.

It sounds clear to me that:

Sterling goes into nitric
Recovery comes from a copper bar/wire/object
and filtering and drying produces fine silver.
If done right you get .999

If this method is valid(?) then i am set and good to go.

I have read much in this community already and am thankful that you are in many of these posts helping and adding your expertise. You are likely the backbone of this site so im just going to assume i am confused because i know very little. My question is simped, does your step one give me what im looking for?

 

[lala14]

I read your words and become riddled, a strange position to be in in a chemist forum.

I don't really know what you mean by that statement. I will assume that you were puzzled by what I said. When asked a question, I try to gear my answer as to how much knowledge I think the person has. Since you are a stock trader and have taken possession of much physical silver, I just assumed that you would know what basic bullion terms like "Fineness" or "Fine Silver" mean. For your sake, I would hope your bullion is stamped "Fine Silver", 999 Silver, or 99.9% silver - or better.

You want black and white answers. Here they are.

(1) Fineness. This is a term that expresses the purity of gold or silver in parts per 1000. It is used internationally in the bullion trade. If you have a 1000 oz bar that is 999 Fine, it would contain 999 oz of silver and 1 oz of impurities. The expression, 999 Fine, is identical to saying, 99.9% pure. Sometimes, the term, 3 nines fine or just 3 nines, is used to express the same purity. A 1000 oz bar that is 999.9 Fine (99.99% pure = 4 nines fine) contains 999.9 oz of silver and 0.1 oz of impurities. Similarly, a 1000 oz bar that is 999.5 Fine (99.95% pure = 3 nines five fine) contains 999.5 oz of silver and 0.5 oz of impurities. European sterling is often marked by it's fineness, 925. It contains 925 parts per 1000 silver and 75 parts per 1000 copper.

(2) Fine Silver. By some sort of international agreement of industry, the term "Fine Silver" refers to silver that is at least 999 Fine. The spot silver price refers to silver that is at least 999 Fine. Silver of lesser purity has a value less than the spot price because someone must still go through the expensive process of purifying it. Look up the definition of "Fine Silver" on the internet. Most every one says 999 Fine or 99.9% pure - same thing.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fine+silver+definition&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS259US259&ie=UTF-8&aq=2&oq=

Fine Gold is different in that it must be at least 999.5 Fine. The spot price of gold refers to gold that is at least 999.5 Fine.

These purity figures are not arbitrary. They are the purities that are usually required in order to make new products, by industry, from these metals.

(3) Refine. This means to re-fine it (make it Fine again), or to purify it back to Fine Silver (or to Fine Gold). Unfortunately, the term, refine, is often incorrectly used when a person actually means "recover". As far as silver is concerned, most in the trade would define "Recovery" as a process that separates it from it's impurities to a point where it's purity is less than 999 Fine. "Recovered" silver must still be "Refined" in order for it to enter back into the international marketplace.

Hope this helps.

Chris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xolhoVJbu6Q this might help

 

[goldsilverpro]

Sterling goes into nitric
Recovery comes from a copper bar/wire/object
and filtering and drying produces fine silver.
If done right you get .999

WRONG!!! You haven't been listening. To repeat what I've already said, if you do everything right, you'll be lucky to get 99.0% (990 Fine) from this process. That last little bit of copper is very hard to remove. There are lots of problems in that system that we haven't even talked about. For example, no matter what kind of copper you use, a few tiny slivers of copper will scale off, as the copper gets eaten, and contaminate the silver. Happens every time, no matter what you do. Watch the video that lala14 just posted in the post right before this one. At the end, you can see the copper slivers (the dark stuff) that have fallen into the silver. How are you going to get those out? Then there is the problem of rinsing all the copper solution out of the cemented silver. It's not called cement for nothing. It has the consistency of cement and it is very difficult to rinse completely.

In any case, the silver won't end up 999 Fine. When it comes to silver bullion, the difference between 990 Fine and 999 Fine is like night and day. If a process that simple would produce 999 Fine silver, I can guarantee you that no refiner would have a silver cell. However, most every refiner I've ever seen has at least one. - not because they like them, but because they need them in order to produce at least 999 Fine silver.

I might mention that someone on the forum, I think it was 4metals, posted a chemical method for producing pure silver that used oxalates. I haven't tried it but it sounded very interesting. You might check that out.

You are likely the backbone of this site

I'm just one of the vertebrae. There's lots of knowledgeable people on this forum. Essentially, this forum is the only game in town, when it comes to learning about refining on the internet.

I'm sure that, if you aren't satisfied with what you can find on the forum, someone will be glad to consult for you. Consider what you find on the forum a gift. If you want or demand more personal attention, it ceases to be a gift.

Chris

 

[lala14]

Sterling goes into nitric
Recovery comes from a copper bar/wire/object
and filtering and drying produces fine silver.
If done right you get .999

WRONG!!! You haven't been listening. To repeat what I've already said, if you do everything right, you'll be lucky to get 99.0% (990 Fine) from this process. That last little bit of copper is very hard to remove. There are lots of problems in that system that we haven't even talked about. For example, no matter what kind of copper you use, a few tiny slivers of copper will scale off, as the copper gets eaten, and contaminate the silver. Happens every time, no matter what you do. Watch the video that lala14 just posted in the post right before this one. At the end, you can see the copper slivers (the dark stuff) that have fallen into the silver. How are you going to get those out? Then there is the problem of rinsing all the copper solution out of the cemented silver. It's not called cement for nothing. It has the consistency of cement and it is very difficult to rinse completely.

In any case, the silver won't end up 999 Fine. When it comes to silver bullion, the difference between 990 Fine and 999 Fine is like night and day. If a process that simple would produce 999 Fine silver, I can guarantee you that no refiner would have a silver cell. However, most every refiner I've ever seen has at least one. - not because they like them, but because they need them in order to produce at least 999 Fine silver.

I might mention that someone on the forum, I think it was 4metals, posted a chemical method for producing pure silver that used oxalates. I haven't tried it but it sounded very interesting. You might check that out.

You are likely the backbone of this site

I'm just one of the vertebrae. There's lots of knowledgeable people on this forum. Essentially, this forum is the only game in town, when it comes to learning about refining on the internet.

I'm sure that, if you aren't satisfied with what you can find on the forum, someone will be glad to consult for you. Consider what you find on the forum a gift. If you want or demand more personal attention, it ceases to be a gift.

Chris

goldsilverpro your right with this you wont get fine gold because of the copper nice catch iv alwasy done it this was never thght of the fine copper thank s

 

[Harold_V]

I am well past the bullion 101 course. I am successful in my field and my silver/gold/plat bullion are unquestionable in content.

I say again; I am a beginner at smithing, and a novice in chemistry. I am here for the application of the method that brought me to this community- The dissolving of sterling and conversion into fine silver. This is all i need help with.

It might be helpful for you to lose your attitude, Mr. I'm successful in my field. You sure as hell aren't successful in paying due respect to someone that has tried to help you.

Harold

 

[nickvc]

I think thats a gentle warning from Harold V, this forum exists to help and inform anyone who cares to LISTEN and LEARN. GSP is one of our more knowledgeable members who has probably refined more silver than you have bought and sold in your life and is trying to point you in the right direction. None of the members of this forum is paid to help, they do so out of the kindness of their hearts, so if you wish to remain a member, and get the help you require, take note that this is offered freely with no gain for anyone but you.