Will it do the job

[carasoph]

Hiya all,

Long time since I had time & option to refine....but I'm back... http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/posting.php?mode=post&f=37#

I was wondering the other night about a process and tried to find an answer to my question here, but didn't find it, so I am addressing you guys, in hope you would know the answer...

Would Chlorine in it's natural form of gas (Cl2) strip the gold from plated items? would it strip the base metals as well? or is it just a fantasy?

My senses are telling me that there MUST be a liquid environment involved...but is this would do the job - I would share my "Patent" with you guys, if it doesn't - well...I'll trash it... http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/posting.php?mode=post&f=37#

Thanks,
Caramon

 

[stihl88]

Sounds similar to the Miller process here> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_process

 

[carasoph]

Yeah...pretty much it....lol...
THOUGH....my trick is NOT to lose the HCl in the process, but recycle most of it -that is the prettiest thing -
you only have to use up the H2O2 (which is consumed) and run the remaining Cl2 through H2O...
the result:
HOCl + HCl.

Are the forum gods agree with the process?
I am working on a process chamber right now...once I have the blueprints - I'll share them.

 

[carasoph]

BTY,

This chamber is consisting on the 2 recovery methods COMBINED...
HCl+Cl/HCl+H2O2 method = 1
Cl2 leaching method = 2
(and, of course, recycling the HCl thingy...which is a bonus....)

 

[Fournines]

It will strip your lungs for sure. Please don't go messing around with chlorine gas.

 

[Harold_V]

It will strip your lungs for sure. Please don't go messing around with chlorine gas.

I second the notion.

Chlorine is very unforgiving. The damage to your lungs, assuming it doesn't kill you, may be permanent. It's simply not worth the risk when there are other ways.

Harold

 

[carasoph]

Hiya again,

Thanks for the warnings - they were there in my mind when I thought about the chamber's plans...

I think you got me all wrong though....

the chamber is to be SEALED and the flow of chlorine is controlled as long as it is still circulated inside the chamber.
as for the remaining chlorine - is will be absorbed in a neutralizing solution so no chlorine is free from the chamber....

In my head - this whole thing is easy to build....but when I write it down - it seems like it is more industrial then for home-use.... :wink:


Still....
The process itself - WORKS.....just not for amateurs.....

 

[Harold_V]

If memory serves, there's some discussion about chlorine extraction in Hoke's book. If not, it's in Rose's The Metallurgy of Gold. Seems to me, chorine is introduced to a chamber, then the gold is washed out with water after dissolution. I have my doubts that it would work for stripping metallic objects, due in part to the base metal cementing the gold from solution.

Note that silver is not recovered by this process.

My concern isn't with the chlorine in the chamber. My concern is that it may not always be ONLY in the chamber. It's like nuclear power. Works great until something goes wrong, then it's not forgiving in the least. Recent events in Japan come to mind as I type this.

Not trying to discourage you---the system is known to work---you just have to balance risk against advantage.

Please do keep us informed if you don't get chased off by the warnings.

Be safe!

Harold

 

[carasoph]

Hiya,

First of all - I would like to take advantage of the oportunity and say a big THANKS to all of you guys here in the forum - for all the help and sacred work you are doing with noobs....and vets as well....
I still consider myself as a noob eventhough I already recovered a few ounces myself...but one can always learn....right ?!?

As for your warnings - I take them as my guidelines - honestly...

I'm a kind of person to look for easier/quicker/better ways to do things that ALREADY WORKS....
and believe me when I say - some chemicals gives me the crips, like Nitric acid or any other form of Nitric/Nitrat so I try not to deal with them at all....fume hood or not - I just don't deal with them....I recover what I can with the HCl vast processes options and the rest is sold as is....

Again - your warning DO their job of taking me out of harm's way - I'm just throwing my ideas to the air - in hope that some greater minds would find them appealing and help me find/develop better ways for our hobby here....

Please do not take my persistancy as stupidity and ignorent - just trying to figure a better way... (I want to recover Pt, Pd & Pa as well....but not with N-A...)

Thanks again,
Caramon

 

[Militoy]

...My concern isn't with the chlorine in the chamber. My concern is that it may not always be ONLY in the chamber. It's like nuclear power. Works great until something goes wrong, then it's not forgiving in the least. Recent events in Japan come to mind as I type this....

Agreed - My main concern would be with the design of the chamber. Chlorine attacks and breaks down many materials - including the common types of gaskets and seals used for environmental chambers. TFE ("Teflon") gaskets are the current norm when working with chlorine gas; but Teflon will cold-flow if pinched under pressure. Leaks commonly develop, even under the rigors of typical lab use.

I had a recent close call with bleach fumes - and I'm more respectful of chlorine now. I use a Honeywell/North half-mask with N7500-2 (AG) filters whenever I'm anywhere around HCl, bleach or peroxide now. Even if I have a good fume hood set up.

 

[carasoph]

Basically, the whole chamber material is Plexiglas or clear Fiberglass glued (soldered) with glass-work glue or epoxy, with NO metals involved (I'm aware of the love for metals the Chlorine has....)
the sealing method will be based on chem lab grade rubber string (the same rubber that the army's gas mask protective gear is made of) with pressure locking (non-automatic).

the Chlorine will be moved from 1 chamber to another by means of vacuum moving.
the first chamber ill have a single way ventilation mechanism (same as the gas mask again...)
and the second chamber will have a final filtering system based on activated charcoal & neutralizing chems (need to learn about those...) to assure that no chlorine is set out of the chamber...

so far for the master plan....
as for the actual building of such chamber - so far, the cost will be around 1k...

 

[Militoy]

Basically, the whole chamber material is Plexiglas or clear Fiberglass glued (soldered) with glass-work glue or epoxy, with NO metals involved (I'm aware of the love for metals the Chlorine has....)
the sealing method will be based on chem lab grade rubber string (the same rubber that the army's gas mask protective gear is made of) with pressure locking (non-automatic).

the Chlorine will be moved from 1 chamber to another by means of vacuum moving.
the first chamber ill have a single way ventilation mechanism (same as the gas mask again...)
and the second chamber will have a final filtering system based on activated charcoal & neutralizing chems (need to learn about those...) to assure that no chlorine is set out of the chamber...

so far for the master plan....
as for the actual building of such chamber - so far, the cost will be around 1k...

I would definitely advise you to educate yourself more before proceeding. BTW - the OSHA website specifically lists activated carbon as one of the substances that needs to be kept separated from chlorine.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/chlorine/recognition.html

 

[carasoph]

Well...
I didn't know it should be avoided to mix Cl with A-Carbon....
any1 knows a good (and preferably - cheap.... ) agent that can absorb the Cl and form a Non-lethal/harmful/explosive substance ??

I'm open to suggestions....

As for the building part - don't worry....after Harold's second reply I realized that the odds of constructing such chamber are somewhere near the big "0"...
just playing with ideas....maybe we'll come up with something that benefits us all eventually...who knows...

 

[skippy]

Activated carbon is often specified as suitable for scrubbing chlorine from exhausts. Perhaps there are situations where it is possible to ignite activated carbon in chlorine, however, I didn't think carbon was terribly reactive with chlorine.
Maybe it's hydrogen gas that might be held on the surface of the fresh carbon that is the potential problem?

Sodium hydroxide solutions work very well for absorbing halogen gases. At lot more economical than carbon too, I imagine. The carbon might be useful for a secondary treatment of the exhaust though depending on whether its safety can be established.

Plexiglass won't last long at all in chlorine gas, and won't be transparent for very long either I imagine. If you want transparent, you'll need to use glass.

 

[carasoph]

Hahaha....
I never thought lye would be good for anything other then burns and plumbing....
This way I'll be making my own Bleach, Table Salt & water....(too bad they will all be together in the same container.... lol) - great idea!

As for the plexiglass - The plexi-specs I was exploring showed that it is chemical resistant and withstand the Cl2 environment, as long as it is not supposed to contain the chlorine for a long time,
it is supposed to be o.k. - same as for it's transparency...
Having to change the material to glass - a 5mm thickness is the LEAST I will be needing and that would make it REALLY expensive to build...almost twice!

Now, you see? we are getting somewhere here....the only issue left is......life insurance ?!? already got 2....
Securing the chlorine so it wouldn't get out ?!? I think that a little thinking is still needed for that...

Anyone has other remarks he wants to share or other warnings I still didn't take in consideration?

 

[skippy]

That's interesting about the resistance of plexiglas. Never would have thought!