Not only sulfuric acid

Hi
In a local store i found some drain opener.
The label says sulfuric acid over 98%.
But the label says there is some But-2-yne-1,4-diol (1,4-dihydroxybut-2-yne) around 2.5%.
Could i use this product in a sulfuric cell to strip gold?
Thanks
Zed

dihydroxybut-2-yne is used as an anti corrosion agent so when the sulfuric acid drain cleaner is put into pipes that are metal, the dihydroxybut-2-yne acts as an inhibitor so that the sulfuric acid doesn't eat away the metal pipes. In this way, the sulfuric acid only reacts with the organic material that is blocking your pipes.

If you can figure out a way to separate the two, then you would have a usable form of sulfuric acid. If not, I am not sure if dihydroxbut-2-yne will inhibit the creation of persulfuric acid at the anode, nor how it might react with the persulfuric acid. It's the persulfuric acid created at the anode when electricity is put to the cell that dissolves gold.

Personally I wouldn't play around with dihydroxybut-2-yne in a sulfuric cell unless I knew definitively that it wouldn't case some weird reaction when electricity is put to the stripping cell. If if even just made the sulfuric acid splatter, it could be very bad for anyone standing around, or any organic material in lands on.

I hope someone does know more about this and can post definitively what the reaction might be, or why it may or may not work or be a good idea.

Scott

But-2-yne-1,4-diol (1,4-dihydroxybut-2-yne)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/But-2-yne-1,4-diol

This sounds like some type of organic additive, C4H6O2, methyl benzene sulfonate? my access to the intranet is limited (bad connection) so I could not search more on this additive.

I am not sure what that additive is (kind of looks like a sugar?), personally I would try the sulfuric acid as the additive is such a small proportion, this could be the same the same sulfuric acid as many of us use now, do you have a company brand name, and the country you buy it in?

Thank for the quick replies.
The drain opener is here:
http://www.starwax.fr/proprete-de-la-maison/wc/details/49/229/Deboucheur-professionnel-WC.html
Buy in France.
Zed

can you get MSDS in your language and English so I could read?

Normally you would not want a carbon compound mixed with strong sulfuric acid, especially one that looks like a sugar, I do not know much about inorganic chemistry, but it looks like this may lock up some of the hydrogen in the acid, Like Scott said to protect pipes, I really do not know how the inhibitor would react in the concentrated sulfuric acid gold stripping cell, and it may or may not work, or may cause problems (I just do not know), I also do not know how the inhibitor would react in the cell as the ions split negatively and positively, or if they would react with gold, or worse yet possibly cause a dangerous situation like a small explosive substance (with this in mind I suggest you do not try it) without studying more of how it may react.
Sulfuric acid has such a high boiling point it is an acid that it cannot be cleaned up like many of the other acids can by distilling, I do not see any way you could remove the inhibitor.
This is not one of the brands I have ever seen or used.

I can't find datasheet on this product, i read the label in the store.
I have done some research about liquid fire drain opener used by some member here, and it contain an acid inhibitor the rodine 31a( formula unknown property of Henkel...), but the liquid fire works in a cell?
Zed

Remember as you investigate this additive, that the properties of the sulfuric acid change once an electrical charge is added, turning the sulfuric acid at the anode into persufluric acid, which may or may not react in a negative way with the additive.

Scott

Ok thanks for the advice.
I will continue my search for sulfuric acid, i don't want to play to the little (al)chemist.
I'm really pleased by the effort of members and the very friendly spirit of the forum.
Zed

looks like concentrated sulfuric acid of the same type used here in the USA.

http://www.extpdf.com/fds-deboucheur-pdf.html

the additive is buffers that inhibits the attack of copper once the acid is diluted in the drain. it shouldnt effect the stripping process.

Thanks Geo but i have good news!
I found 94% certified sulfuric acid ( and less expensive than the drain opener), and ordered in same time some SMB.
I have to dig about cell construction.
What about this set up? anode is more a tray than a basket, but i already have some copper plate but no mesh.

http://file.poubelles.be/IMG-0418.JPG
Thank
Zed

that should work ok. as long as it has drain holes in the bottom. its been argued that to close the front will cause a Faraday effect stopping the flow of electrons but this has been shot down i believe. if you do close in the front and make a basket, i would recommend putting some holes in the front as well.

Hey guys, first post. Not sure whether this warrants a new thread or not so I figured I'd post here. If I should have created a new thread, then I apologise in advance. As it stands, I could not find any information on this forum regarding the product I am confused about.

From what I've read and searched on this forum and others (of which I have done plenty), time and time again Rooto and Liquid Fire have been suggested as drain cleaner options as a source of sulphuric acid. As I am in Australia, these brands are not available, based on my searching. Dilute battery acid is another option, however the shops won't sell it on its' own here; it must be purchased with a new motorcycle battery. Go figure...

So the only sulphuric acid-based drain cleaner I have found locally is made by a brand called Momar and is a product called MO-FLO. It comes packaged in a tall, brown plastic 1 Litre bottle. It states: Sulfuric Acid 1,835g/L. Although their website says 1.8gm/Ltr, and one of the MSDS sheets states that the specific weight is 1.835g while comparing that to H20 which is 1. I'm kind of confused. In any event, that bottle is HEAVY, I mean, wow! Inside it is a dark-tinted and thick viscous fluid. Apparently for "safety", so I'm assuming as a splash preventative.
It states that it contains inhibitors to reduce metal corrosion. So I, too, am confused as to how this will affect the electrolytic and chemical properties of this H2SO4 as regards gold refining. Firstly in an eloctrolyte cell with lead and copper, as well as using it to precipitate lead out of chloroauric acid, as indeeditdoes has shown in several of his videos. (I believe he's the guy behind Gold-N-Scrap).

I have found several different MSDS sheets for this. It would seem some are from Australia and at least one of them from the US. None of them mention what the inhibitor is. They also have conflicting information as to what the final concentration percentage is. A couple say 90%, while another says 93%, while another says it has been "formulated with 99% virgin sulfuric acid". I'll try and attach them, in case anyone cares to peruse them.

My other option is obtaining reagent grade sulphuric acid from the chemical supply guy which is about a three hour drive from me (I live out in the country). This product is a clear, thin fluid. I would love to have this product however it requires a $65 courier fee as it is classed as "dangerous goods". I can drive to go get it but petrol here costs about the equivalent of $5.50/gallon. The cost of the reagent grade is $23.00 per 500ml or $56.50 per 2.5L. The cost of the MO FLO is $42/L but it's right here in town. So if the MO FLO will work, I'll go that route, at least for the time being,

Sorry for the rambling post...

Any advice that anyone is willing to share is greatly appreciated. And once again, if this post does not belong here, than I apologise.

Thank you.

Anybody??

And once again, if I've posted the question in the wrong area, or asked the wrong question, or anything else, please let me know for the future.

It is hard to reply to a question when we do not know the answer to it, the inhibitors could be a minor contamination which may not cause a problem, or it could cause troubles or worse even be dangerous.

I did try for a little while to find out what the inhibitor was in this brand of sulfuric acid, but I could not find it listed anywhere, what I did find interesting was there are companies that make inhibitors for acids, but even these companies do not go into details of what their products actually are or what they contain, I not sure if it is trade secrets why they do not give this information or not, I couldn't even find the brand name or number, or chemical of the inhibitor used in the MO-flO brand sulfuric acid, in any of the searches.

I did see one post on a science forum where a guy tried making nitric acid with this brand of sulfuric acid and He then had problems with carbon floating in his nitric, this leads be to believe it is a carbon base organic compound used, but then again this is only a guess.

Yeah it could be hard to answer a question without having an answer! I guess I just figured I'd throw it out there and see if anyone had any idea. :lol:

I suppose I could be the guinea pig and try it out. But that would be a potential loss of yield. :shock:

I tried emailing the company about some details of the product and I got a response basically stating refusal to discuss it any further without my supplying a company name and a phone number for him to call me on. I suppose it's either trade secrets, as you've mentioned, or he's sketched out about what I want that information for. Who knows...

In any event, I appreciate your response and effort into looking into this. I guess I'll play it safe and stick with the reagent grade. Pain in the rear, aye. But at least I'm lucky enough to have the option.

Knowing me, I would probably try it, I seem to find things out the hard way.
maybe try few pins, in a baby food size jar cell, using a battery, and a small strip of lead cathode.

I can relate to that. I'm definitely in the "finding things out the hard way" camp. However, the whole process is still new to me. I'm still in the process of finding out all of this the hard way! So I'd like to start with something that works without complications. That way when I mess up (which I reckon I will, hence the phrase "hard way") I want to know that it was something I did, and not the ingredients I used. It'll be tricky for me to sort out user error from material error if I'm not even sure that my materials are known good. Once I have some experience under my belt then yes, I'm definitely game to try variations on a theme! Especially if it means a closer and easier source of needed materials!

Again, thanks for your answers.

Seems to me that if the sulphuric is thick it would take longer for the powder to settle, and be harder to filter.

Derek

zebulon said:

Thanks Geo but i have good news!
I found 94% certified sulfuric acid ( and less expensive than the drain opener), and ordered in same time some SMB.
I have to dig about cell construction.
What about this set up? anode is more a tray than a basket, but i already have some copper plate but no mesh.

http://file.poubelles.be/IMG-0418.JPG
Thank
Zed

Click to expand...

I have seen plenty of posts in various forums where instructions/descriptions of electrolytic cells
Use sheets of copper to make trays. Actually find it more often than baskets of copper screen.