Agua Regia not dropping gold after saturation with smb

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Why not just disassemble any old broken electronic device made in the last 10 years, probably made with lead-free solder?

With these 3rd world countries, they can't just go to the hardware store and get "X", most likely there is only hammer and nails to choose from.
 
20181212_103755.jpg20181212_103736.jpg20181212_104423.jpgButcher.....I happened to come across this solution at a small hardware (the only one where I come from) ....is this good to denox ....rather ask and make sure than putting scrap in and more scrap out.......
 
The first 3 photos is one product (grout/tile cleaner) and the other to remove grout from tiles....
Which one is best.....
 
You don't have enough knowledge and skills to even start dreaming of refining.

Simple as that.
 
Dr xyz.....you don't even have the skill to be on this forum if that is your attitude......learn a few lessons from Butcher on compassion for new beginners...where you once were I bet.....after all...what is this forum for..... definitely not for guys like you hammering down on someone willing to learn.... remind me not to take advice from you with your facebook comments.....bless you in any case....
 
Just pointing out that you started doing things in the wrong order. Studying and learning comes first, before you touch any kinds of chemicals.

If you had done that, you would not be in this messy situation, OK?
 
Are you saying that Urea does not effectively deNOx a solution Richard?
Or are you saying that it does, but it's via a few more steps than are apparent?
Jon
My understanding.
How can I say this, or explain it???
Urea can remove the decomposition products (NOx) from nitric acid, but it does not destroy the nitric acid.
Red fuming nitric ( with decomposition products NOx) which makes the acid red from the gases of decomposition If concentrated H2O2 or urea is added will make pure white fuming nitric acid.
Urea and nitric acid will make urea nitrate.

Urea can remove the decomposition products of nitric acid (NOx) from an aqua regia solution (as long as free nitric acid is not involved or at least is very minimal). So Yes it will de-NOx a solution of aqua regia (remove the NOx or decomposed nitric acid products in solution.
But it will not destroy the free nitric acid in solution.

Urea and nitric acid form urea nitrate in solution.
(H2N)2CO + HNO3 ==> (H2N)2COH(+) + NO3(-)
or written differently
CO(NH2)2 (aq) + HNO3 (aq) → (NH2)2COHNO3 (s)

some formula's used for urea nitrate
(NH2)2COHNO3
CH5N3O4,
(H2N)2COH(+)

urea nitrate is not very soluble in water and crystallizes easily.

HNO2 nitrous acid is one of the decmposition products of nitric acid (HNO3)
Urea and nitrous acid (de-NOx)----> forms gases nitrogen (N2) and carbon dioxide (CO2), and water
H2N-CO-NH2 + 2 HNO2 + ==> CO2 + 2 N2 + 3 H2O



urea in a solution of PGM's can form some ammonia complexes with platinum which will inhibit their drop with ammonium chloride.


Urea can deNOx the solution, but it will not remove nitric acid, excess urea forms urea nitrate ( a dangerous explosive dry salt and with possibly dangerous in situations of boiling acid solutions under certain conditions). Debatably Useful in refining ( and then only if free nitric acid is Not involved in the aqua regia solution, as when minimal nitric is used and only the decomposition products of the former acid were previously involved such as NO, NO2. HNO2...
Urea can complex with Platinum giving trouble recovery with ammonium chloride.

Urea good as fertilizer but in my opinion is just dangerous and useless as a way to remove the oxidizers from our aqua regia solution.


Maybe someone with some chemistry background can help me explain this better.
 
Hi Butcher .....any comments on the first photograph of tile kleaner as you suggested. ..it does contain sulphuric acid.......
 
Dr xyz......I'm not perfect yet...but striving to be better tomorrow...... I made a few mistakes but I bet my next batch will be flawless with all the input of the nice people that gave positive input overlooking my stupidity.....learning by mistakes are the best teacher.... forgive you bro...
 
Jovane, sulfuric acid does not deNOx a solution. You need sulfamic acid.

Sulfuric acid is useful to remove any dissolved lead from your solutions, precipitating it as insoluble lead sulfate. A nice side benefit of using sulfamic acid is that one of the byproducts is sulfuric acid.

In this pursuit, the slightest differences in chemical names are very important.

Dave
 
Thanks for trying Butcher- to be honest I was trying to get my heads around it myself.

I was trying to work out whether it was one of those equilibrium reactions whereby as the Nox was used up more Nitric broke down therefore it effectively reacted with all of the free Nitric over time albeit in a "roundabout" way.
 
Jovane,
Sorry but I have to agree with Dr xyz that your trying to pull your horse by jerking on the cart, it is easier to get the horse to pull the cart so you can ride along smoothly.

Study well anything your working on, before buying anything, or doing any experiments, when purchasing chemicals or labware be sure it is what you need, you will also need to understand the dangers involved...

Looks like you have two acids one with sulfuric and one with HCl, did you get the MSDS or safety data sheets for these? Some products contain ingredients which give problems or can contain other chemicals...
I cannot see enough information from your photos to tell what acid or product you have pictured, except that one contains HCL the other H2SO4.

I also see a roll of solder. do you know the composition? lead, tin, copper, silver, antimony... any markings like 60/40 on the solder?

The silvery metal beads in your ( from your friend) could be tin or contain tin as a solder? I do not know.

When tin dissolves in HCl you may not see much of a reaction, with a little heat you may see some bubbles come from the metal, the solution of stannous chloride can be water clear. Other metals like copper can color the solution, silver or lead if involved (solder) will form a white cloud and white precipitate (powder) antimony can leave a bit of black powder insoluble in HCl or the stannous chloride solution.




You seem to think because I mentioned a grout cleaner that anything that cleans grout bought at your store will work, this is not true, sulfamic acid is one chemical used to clean grout, as well as many acids or combination of acids. in my country, one brand of grout cleaner contains almost pure sulfamic acid (a white dry powder).

Research the chemicals before buying them, research before using them, remembering the most important thing is to research the safe usage and the safe disposal...
 
Thanks Dave...so noted....nicely explained ..... will have to wait till monthend to be in South Africa to sèek all I need...
 
:? Why does hoke suggest sulphuric acid on page 44 point 5 REMOVING EXCESS NITRIC ACID up to page 45........ I have sulphuric acid..... any comments please. ...
 
You have to read the whole explanation.
Hoke said:
(5) REMOVING EXCESS NITRIC ACID
You were told to use no more aqua regia than was required. Be-
ginners always use too much. Experienced workers often do the
same thing, especially when in a hurry, because fresh acids work
more rapidly than those that are partly exhausted.

Sooner or later you must get rid of the unused nitric acid. Most
workers think it pays to do so right away, as follows:

Put the aqua regia solution into a big evaporating dish. It will
contain some sediment, mostly silver chloride; this does no harm at
this point, so do not filter it yet. Now add a little sulphuric acid,
stirring all the time, and working slowly, as it might spatter. Use
about an ounce or less of the sulphuric acid to each quart of liquid.
Now boil the solution down gently, to a syrup, being careful not to
spatter. The purpose of the sulphuric acid will be explained later.

This evaporation is a tiresome process. It goes rapidly at first, but
soon the liquid begins to spatter and you must lower the flame. Do
not cover the dish, as that merely impedes evaporation. A sand bath
or a steam bath is useful; these have already been described.

When using a sand bath, start work by pushing the sand to the
sides of the pan, so that the heat can quickly reach the evaporating
dish; later, as evaporation has progressed, scrape the sand down
underneath the dish, to lessen the tendency to spatter.

The advantage of the steam bath is that it does not cause spatter-
ing, and a dish can be left on it without supervision, without danger
of overheating.

Let the evaporation continue until the liquid becomes syrupy;
then slowly add a little full-strength hydrochloric acid. Brown
fumes will bubble off; this is the unused nitric acid being expelled.
Usually this evaporation must be repeated at least once, maybe twice
—evaporating to a syrup and adding a little hydrochloric acid—in
order to get rid of all the unused nitric acid.

Do not carry the evaporation far enough to form a hard crust.
One reason for the sulphuric acid is that it hastens the expulsion of
the nitric acid, and when it is present there is less tendency for a
hard crust to be formed. The sulphuric acid also serves another pur-
pose—to get rid of lead—which is described fully in a later chapter.

Dave
 
When evaporating down a solution we begin to vapor off the volatile gases, first vapors composition will be mostly from the more volatiles in solution such as water, water and nitric, and then nitric and HCl then HCl, through evaporation the acids decompose to gases, some metals begin to form insoluble salts (example copper nitrate) which if acidified will later reform nitric acid in solution.

Example: where we can evaporate down aqua regia to a syrup and add HCl and see a cloud of red gas as the copper nitrate reforms nitric acid which decomposes back to NO2 gas, and we evaporate the solution again to rid solution of free nitric...

Added sulfuric can remove all of the nitric and nitrates (and even free HCL if we wished in one evaporation process, where without it we may have to do the traditional (evaporate add HCl, evaporate add HCl and evaporate for the third time to ensure all nitric is gone and all nitrates are converted)...


Sulfuric can help keep base metals from forming nitrate salts, and converting nitrate salts to sulfate salts, by keeping the solution wet during evaporation (sulfuric is not boiling away with other more volatile acids like nitric and then HCl.

Sulfuric will convert base metal nitrate salts to nitric acid and sulfates, where nitric can further decompose and be driven from solution, base metals can form soluble sulfate salts (and insoluble lead sulfate) the hot sulfuric allows you to evaporate the solution down further than you could have without it, and still keep it a wet solution.

We could take the evaporation further using sulfuric than we can from a solution without it, for instance if we evaporated too far by mistake without sulfuric we will be left with a pile of burnt gold chloride and base metals salts, with sulfuric we cannot easily vapor off all of the liquid, but we can practically drive off all of the nitric acids and going even further than is needed we can evaporate off all of the free HCl and still keep the gold in solution...

Adding sulfuric acid changes the azeotrope, of the mixture when distilling or evaporating a solution.

azeotropeHNO3.PNG
 
Ok, sorry Butcher, quote: "we can evaporate off all of the free HCl and still keep the gold in solution..."

Gold in sulfuric...you will have to prove this one to me.
I agree the gold will stay in solution up until most of the hcl is gone but not all.

Have you done this? How do you know all the chlorides were gone?
 
Jovane said:
Göran...I did mention those crystals are supposedly TIN........Which as far as I understand is also stannous chloride if desolved in HCL.....or am I missing something....

Jovane..
Yes, tin dissolved in HCl creates stannous chloride. If the crystals shown is tin I have no idea about, to me it's just some metallic objects. To be frank, it doesn't look like tin to me, tin is a low temperature melting soft metal and usually doesn't form nice crystals like that. I would recommend to go with the solder, it will work even if it is lead-tin solder.

Göran
 
i just want to help---i sometimes had problems,with gold solutions where the gold was dificult to precipitate---or because ,i did not denox well,other times because i used excess of smb to drop a few grams of gold--sometimes i used urea,sometimes worked,othe times did not work---but i always knew ,that there was gold in the solutions,because i tested with stanous chloride crystals---strong violet collor(almost black) more gold---weak vilet collor, less gold---no collor,no gold----Fed up with this problem(whem it arises) ,i did the follow: to the solution problem,i added naoh,until hydroxides was formed----i filtrated this hydroxide out,and to it,i added hcl to make a gold chloride solutionn(strong yellow gold chloride solution-----to the solutionn ,i added ,smb,and imeddiatelly ,gold precipitated----the gold at the bottom,and the collor of the solution like water,if the solution continue to be yellow,just add some more smb---and the rest of the gold precipitates---- i did not read all the threads on this topic----but as i said-----i wanted to help friends with the nitric problem in Ar---- regards to all--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Arthur Kierski
 
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