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Franciz,

You joined this forum at the end of November and 1 day later started asking about selling your flux. You have been given suggestions as to what to do and formulations to follow and you have yet to follow them exactly as written, every time you report back you have changed proportions or added lead. You can see how thin the fluorspar makes the flux from what you have just reported back, now do what is suggested. If you add lead it will mix with all of the metals that come down and it will all look like lead unless you cupel it. When you do get a button chances are it will not appear gold in color even if there is gold in it, what you are trying is to collect all of the metallic particles. After collecting you move on to refining.

I've tried very hard to get you to do this in a specific way but you don't seem to be able to do it. Until you come back here after following the formula without additional materials and report a result, I'm done with suggestions. There is a lot you can learn from experimentation, but you have to experiment in an orderly deliberate way, I don't think you get that part.
 
Franciz

In one melt use all old borax and see how much values ends up in the bead.
In the second use additional fresh borax as has been recommended, and see how much ends up in the bead. Have assays done on each bead
Then you'll know how well you have done, figure out your costs and go from there. Just two experiments, and you'll have learned a lot.

Oh and grind up enough borax together so you have enough to do multiple experiments on a consistently loaded material. If you take a separate sample each time you do an experiment,
you will know nothing for certain.

Also another option might be to do the sodium carbonate + fluorite fluxing of the material with and without the extra borax and then have the flux itself assayed post reprocessing to see how much precious metal fell out of each flux. Maybe this approach be accurate enough to make a decision with too and might be easier, if you are having a hard time recovering a bead.
 
Franciz said:
Can i replace new borax with silica sand?
Click to expand...
Silica sand does not melt at the temperatures in consideration. However, in the presence of soda ash, it dissolves (it's called glass then). I see no particular reason to add silica.

Stop changing the game plan. Try one thing at a time and don't make any changes until you have determined if you are successful, or not. Do not trust your eyes. You do not have the ability to see if the values have been recovered, or not. An assay will make that determination for you.

If you find that there are no prills in the material after it has been processed, it's entirely possible it has been harvested. You'd know that by pouring the molten slag to a cone mold, where the values would be found in the bottom, at the very tip of the cone.

No need for me to go in to the added lead. That has already been well covered. What there is need for is for you to try running a small lot without adding lead, to see if you achieve your goal. If there is silver present, it, too, should report in the harvested metals. You CAN NOT determine what you are harvesting visually----all you can ascertain is that you are, or are not, harvesting.

Do you think i am seeking a method of recovery that involves no cost?
For me, It is a question and not seeking for magic answer.
If you know any Magic answer please share it here....
Click to expand...
There is no magic answer. There is no magic answer. There is no magic answer.

Harold
 
Harold_V said:
Franciz said:
Can i replace new borax with silica sand?
Click to expand...
Silica sand does not melt at the temperatures in consideration. However, in the presence of soda ash, it dissolves (it's called glass then). I see no particular reason to add silica.

Stop changing the game plan. Try one thing at a time and don't make any changes until you have determined if you are successful, or not. Do not trust your eyes. You do not have the ability to see if the values have been recovered, or not. An assay will make that determination for you.

If you find that there are no prills in the material after it has been processed, it's entirely possible it has been harvested. You'd know that by pouring the molten slag to a cone mold, where the values would be found in the bottom, at the very tip of the cone.

No need for me to go in to the added lead. That has already been well covered. What there is need for is for you to try running a small lot without adding lead, to see if you achieve your goal. If there is silver present, it, too, should report in the harvested metals. You CAN NOT determine what you are harvesting visually----all you can ascertain is that you are, or are not, harvesting.

Do you think i am seeking a method of recovery that involves no cost?
For me, It is a question and not seeking for magic answer.
If you know any Magic answer please share it here....
Click to expand...
There is no magic answer. There is no magic answer. There is no magic answer.

Harold
Click to expand...

Thanks Harold,

I will try every method with small batch and see if i get any prill.

Every time after i smelt it left full of tiny metallic color on top, It is in powder form all metallic color.
Full of metallic color and just refuse to sink.
For this issue, issit because i don give enough time for it to sink?

Thanks ......
 
Franciz said:
Every time after i smelt it left full of tiny metallic color on top, It is in powder form all metallic color.
Full of metallic color and just refuse to sink.
For this issue, issit because i don give enough time for it to sink?

Thanks ......
Click to expand...
Are you using a graphite/clay crucible? What you are seeing is most likely graphite on the surface---it has nothing to do with precious metals. Fluorspar and soda ash are very aggressive. They tend to dissolve silica, and are equally hard on other materials, including alumina. You'll come to discover your melting vessel won't last long.

This operation is very fundamental. Melt the material, and allow it to soak for a period of time. If it is fluid enough, the values will settle to the bottom. Once they gather, they will remain as one bit of metal, which you will find in the tip of the cone, assuming you're pouring to a cone mold. If you are not, you may be wasting your time, because you'll have to bread up every pour to see where the small button of metal is.

If, after you've melting and poured the slag, you can still see tiny prills spread through the slag, you'll know that what you're doing isn't working. If you can't find any prills, you'll know one of two things. One is that they have all gathered in one place because of the proper heating, or they have been absorbed by the slag and are no longer visible. That would happen only if they are well oxidized and do not contain any gold. If that's the case, you haven't lost anything----it was never there in the beginning.

Remember---follow the instructions you received from 4metals to the letter. Do not experiment---just do as he says. In the end, when you think you have solved the riddle, it would be important to have the resulting slag assayed to see if you are leaving behind any values that can be recovered. If so, you must then do something different.

Harold
 
Thanks for all information :)
This is happen to me also...many configuration i try...but the goll always never collect together into the bottom of graphite....
IN Last 2 days my flux chapman and fluorspar arrived...i test many configuration....
until i test 100% gold powder and 50% chapman flux and 25% fluorspar...
The result is the same..the gold cannot collect tobe 1 bead...

I think my gold powder is not much gold...

Regards

Joel
 
j2000,

Is this the type furnace and graphite crucible you're using? Not the brand necessarily, but the type?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-KG-Gold-Melting-Furnace-Kiln-Machine-110V-Refining-Casting-Gold-Silver-2102-F-/321259634263

About the only thing they are good for is melting gold or silver for casting, in my experience. That's what they were designed for. They are very slow to heat up and won't take heavy fluxing at all. Harold and I have both owned these and found them to be totally worthless. I used mine once. You would be much better off with a torch and melting dish. I prefer these thick ones with a handle.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melting-Dish-With-Handle-Pour-Gold-Bars-Crucible-and-Tong-Set-/221308144502?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3386fe4b76
 
GSP ---Joel's (j2000) problem is iron --- go look at his post titled "Borax only without anything" in the Chemicals section

based on the color of the slag he has pictured there - he ether has some gold mixed in with a LOT of iron - or he just has iron (oxide/rust) which is why I asked where &/or how he got the powders he is trying to melt

At this point I don't know if he is trying to work with more of the same powders - or if he is trying to re-melt/smelt the slag from his first try only with the addition of fluorspar now

Kurt
 
GSP ---Joel's (j2000) problem is iron --- go look at his post titled "Borax only without anything" in the Chemicals section
Click to expand...

I was concerned with what melting equipment was being used. I probably should have posted in the other thread.

When you try to more complicated stuff like this, you need to use melting equipment that will give you, at least, a fighting chance to be successful. Success is in the fluxing and, unless you know exactly what flux mixture to use, you have to frequently stand over it, watch it work, stir it, and make flux additions. I know of no electrical furnace setup that will allow you do these things with any sort of efficiency.

You need gas. Either a torch setup or a crucible furnace or, preferably, both.
 
goldsilverpro said:
j2000,

Is this the type furnace and graphite crucible you're using? Not the brand necessarily, but the type?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-KG-Gold-Melting-Furnace-Kiln-Machine-110V-Refining-Casting-Gold-Silver-2102-F-/321259634263

About the only thing they are good for is melting gold or silver for casting, in my experience. That's what they were designed for. They are very slow to heat up and won't take heavy fluxing at all. Harold and I have both owned these and found them to be totally worthless. I used mine once. You would be much better off with a torch and melting dish. I prefer these thick ones with a handle.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melting-Dish-With-Handle-Pour-Gold-Bars-Crucible-and-Tong-Set-/221308144502?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3386fe4b76
Click to expand...

Yes like that GSP...
Need 30min from cold to 1000c, but no problem...around 45min temp rise to max 1150c, i hold it until 30min, pour it, put again another no need total 45min to rise 1150c.
The quality is really not good...but enough for beginner like me....
I will buy american made...when my problem solve...hehehe...
Coz many tools i have is made-in USA, it's very good quality...

I have victor torch oxy/ace or victor turbo torch propane only...but my powder is really small, i have wire mesh 325 still cannot filter that powder...
Too much powder blown up when i use torch...
Or u have experience for melting powder with mesh over 325 with torch?
I really have a problem to handle this powder with torch...

Thanks

Joel.
 
kurtak said:
Joel

where &/or how did you get the powders you are trying to melt

Kurt
Click to expand...

i got from my customer, that powder after chemical processing but they don't tell me...
I have more than 7kg/14lbs, and much more IF i can resolve the problem...

Thanks

Joel
 
goldsilverpro said:
GSP ---Joel's (j2000) problem is iron --- go look at his post titled "Borax only without anything" in the Chemicals section
Click to expand...

I was concerned with what melting equipment was being used. I probably should have posted in the other thread.

When you try to more complicated stuff like this, you need to use melting equipment that will give you, at least, a fighting chance to be successful. Success is in the fluxing and, unless you know exactly what flux mixture to use, you have to frequently stand over it, watch it work, stir it, and make flux additions. I know of no electrical furnace setup that will allow you do these things with any sort of efficiency.

You need gas. Either a torch setup or a crucible furnace or, preferably, both.
Click to expand...

Thanks GSP, you r right...it's need to fighting to be successful...i hope almost...

For this powder, i prefer electric furnace...
I have chinesse melting furnace 1150c, but i can make it over 1300c with manipulate the thermocouple, but now the chamber have lil crack in few times using and damage the thermocuple few times but no problem i still have more thermocouple parts...it's still ok, but i worried about the ceramic chamber...
But can it hold until few thousand time to melt crucible...at least until my 7kg powder finish to be gold...coz when i can resolve it..i will buy electric furnace made-in usa...hehehe

Best Regards

Joel
 
kurtak said:
GSP ---Joel's (j2000) problem is iron --- go look at his post titled "Borax only without anything" in the Chemicals section

based on the color of the slag he has pictured there - he ether has some gold mixed in with a LOT of iron - or he just has iron (oxide/rust) which is why I asked where &/or how he got the powders he is trying to melt

At this point I don't know if he is trying to work with more of the same powders - or if he is trying to re-melt/smelt the slag from his first try only with the addition of fluorspar now

Kurt
Click to expand...

Thanks kurt, u absolutely right..., this black color is iron...
I just doubt with that smell (after i melt and wash with hot water) is something like rust of iron...and finally i know it's really iron...
When i melt, and i pour to the water, there's blink of gold (yellow) but the major parts is black...before i don't know/sure it's iron, i think reaction with my borax...
When i use Citric Acid (not nitric acid) with hot water, the parts of black is totally gone...and the color of water to be yellow to almost green...as another member said, yellow color in the water is not gold but possible is oxidation of iron...
But iam sad, too much acid make the gold floating in the water, need 3 days to wating the very very tiny powder of gold sink to the bottom...

*yes same powder like my pic in my another thread kurt...

Regards

Joel
 
The chloride leach can be made from several different things, we discuss here on the forum to dissolve gold, these can be HCl/HNO3 (aqua regia), or HCl/NaClO (bleach or sodium hypochlorite), or HCl/32% H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide), these are the more common.
 
ehat are other thining agents used in flux out of florspar, as flourspar is too much expensive here, round about 350 dollars per kg
 

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