gold Foil Recovery( Need Response ASAP)

[butcher]

While doing some study on dealing with waste, you will learn some of the basic principles.
During this time the copper in the bucket will be undergoing a chemical reaction to recover any gold that can be recovered from the solution (that is if it can be reduced).

During your study of waste treatment you will learn of some of the very imprtant basic principles of recovering and of refining, one of which you have already started, by adding the clean bar of copper to the solution.

The copper will displace gold from solution, or cement the gold, Here were are using copper as a reducing agent, just the same as if we used a chemical reducing agent.

The solution then we can save and use later for a recovery process, or treat it as waste, preparing it for safe disposal...

The Muck, well lets just dry it out, for now, we can deal with it later and recover the gold from it.

Now the solution is bassically an chloride solution of copper and many other metals, which could be used as a cupric chloride or ferric chloride leach, but lets go ahead and treat it for waste, basically using it to learn more by doing what we have studied.

So we took the bar of copper out after it has done its job of displacing any gold or valueble metals from solution, and brushed off any black powder or salts from the copper bar back into the solution with the muck, we let the this settle overnight while we studied more in the safety section, we decanted the solution without disturbing the muck, washing the muck in water and drying it out for recovery later...

Then we get us a claen piece of iron rebar, here we will use again what we learned from our study of dealing with waste, and more about the chemisty of recovery and refining, we will put the iron into solution, not all metals will react to the iron, the iron is also a reducing agent, just like the other chemicals we use to recover and refine gold, here the iron is selective of what metals it will reduce, or what dissolved metal ion it will change back into metal, with this process we will recover our copper as metal, we can save it for use in recovery or refining with or use it in many different ways.

At this point we have a iron chloride solution and other very reactive metals, we could save this solution, for as ferric chloride leaching process to recover gold or silver or just treat it further for waste...

Now the iron chloride solution we can use lime or NaOH, to treat it further for waste, here we will also learn much more form the chemisty, converting the metals to oxides and hydroxides, with each and every step in learning to deal with the waste and our study of the process we will begin to learn many of the important basic principles we need to understand to learn to recover and refine precious metals.

The Muck may have a few flakes of gold, but it is worthless comparing it, to what you can gain in by just spending your time learning how to deal with your toxic waste safely.

Spending our time studying we can learn to recover and refine gold and know where to find it.

Chasing gold flakes around with acids and electronic scrap, and making muck is just a very slow and hard way to learn how to get gold, that is if you can find it.

 

[butcher]

Here we have a graph that can help us understand a little more of the process,

At the bottom of this graph, we see pH and numbers which indicate if the solution is acid or it is the opposite of an acid (basic or caustic) or more alkaline...
The lower the number the more acidic, the higher the number the more basic or alkaline the solution is.

Water is at pH 7, if we add acid we lower the pH down towards zero, if we add lime or NaOH we raise the pH number towards 14.

On the left of the graph, we see a value scale for the amount of metal concentration in milligrams per liter...

Within the chart we see metal ions dissolved in a solution, this chart will contain some of the metals you could be dealing with in recovery of scrap from electronics, but the chart does not show all of the metals involved...

So in a quick look at this chart, we see that all of these metals are more soluble in a more acidic solution, and the metal ion concentration goes down as the solution becomes more basic.

The metals are also all over the chart, there is no one pH where we can remove all of these metals from solution.

Note, how the lead is still very soluble at a pH of 8.5 while at this same pH the copper is at its lowest solubility...
How silver can remain in a basic solution that will not hold other metal ions...

Copper in solution at a pH of 6 copper has a solubility of 20 mg/l and at a pH of 8.0, the solubility of the copper is 0.05 mg/l.

Note how some metals will precipitate as the solution becomes more basic and then redissolve again as the pH of the solution gets higher or even more basic, metals such as chromium and zinc are amphoteric, being soluble at both alkaline and acid conditions.

Chromium reaches its least theoretical chromium solubility of 0.08 at a pH of 7.5.
If both chromium and nickel are present a pH value that precipitates both ions must be chosen. It is common to utilize a pH of 9.0 – 9.5 to precipitate both metals.

With our study of dealing with the waste, we will learn more of how this can be helpful to not only dealing with our toxic solution but also gain valuable insights and more of an understanding of how these metals react in a recovery or refining proces...

 

[Martijn]

As you follow butcher's very well put together step by step tutorial, please be so kind to take pictures and post what you are doing. It can become a very helpfull post for many like you. Referring to this post would guide them through the basic learning steps.
Once you are done with that more steps and answers to your questions will follow, i am sure. Good luck.

Knowlegde is priceless, treasure it

 

[butcher]

That is how I learn, I get some kind of question in my head, Dang it now I want to find an answer, I look up and down, high and low, what do I find?

Questions, more questions, and I find many answers that I did not even know I had a question for, yes I finally found the answer to my question, but now I am looking for more answers.

I find more answers looking for the answers ----than most anyone who is just asking a question, we can answer his question and he goes home with one simple answer to his question, after getting home if he understands the answer, he may just be standing there what now that did not get me anywhere...

While I am out there looking and digging more answer, and more answers to my questions, I go home with more answers and a whole lot more questions to dig for tomorrow.

Ask a question get an answer. Now what?

Look for the answer, and you will find more questions along with that answer, and go home with more questions and answers...

 

[GoldrecoveryNoob]

While doing some study on dealing with waste, you will learn some of the basic principles.
During this time the copper in the bucket will be undergoing a chemical reaction to recover any gold that can be recovered from the solution (that is if it can be reduced).

During your study of waste treatment you will learn of some of the very imprtant basic principles of recovering and of refining, one of which you have already started, by adding the clean bar of copper to the solution.

The copper will displace gold from solution, or cement the gold, Here were are using copper as a reducing agent, just the same as if we used a chemical reducing agent.

The solution then we can save and use later for a recovery process, or treat it as waste, preparing it for safe disposal...

The Muck, well lets just dry it out, for now, we can deal with it later and recover the gold from it.

Now the solution is bassically an chloride solution of copper and many other metals, which could be used as a cupric chloride or ferric chloride leach, but lets go ahead and treat it for waste, basically using it to learn more by doing what we have studied.

So we took the bar of copper out after it has done its job of displacing any gold or valueble metals from solution, and brushed off any black powder or salts from the copper bar back into the solution with the muck, we let the this settle overnight while we studied more in the safety section, we decanted the solution without disturbing the muck, washing the muck in water and drying it out for recovery later...

Then we get us a claen piece of iron rebar, here we will use again what we learned from our study of dealing with waste, and more about the chemisty of recovery and refining, we will put the iron into solution, not all metals will react to the iron, the iron is also a reducing agent, just like the other chemicals we use to recover and refine gold, here the iron is selective of what metals it will reduce, or what dissolved metal ion it will change back into metal, with this process we will recover our copper as metal, we can save it for use in recovery or refining with or use it in many different ways.

At this point we have a iron chloride solution and other very reactive metals, we could save this solution, for as ferric chloride leaching process to recover gold or silver or just treat it further for waste...

Now the iron chloride solution we can use lime or NaOH, to treat it further for waste, here we will also learn much more form the chemisty, converting the metals to oxides and hydroxides, with each and every step in learning to deal with the waste and our study of the process we will begin to learn many of the important basic principles we need to understand to learn to recover and refine precious metals.

The Muck may have a few flakes of gold, but it is worthless comparing it, to what you can gain in by just spending your time learning how to deal with your toxic waste safely.

Spending our time studying we can learn to recover and refine gold and know where to find it.

Chasing gold flakes around with acids and electronic scrap, and making muck is just a very slow and hard way to learn how to get gold, that is if you can find it.

I was just re reading this post am I supposed to mix the Greg stuff back with the water?
Also I put the solution in the sun to heat up I tested it but it was still negative.

 

[GoldrecoveryNoob]

How long would I have t keep the copper in there.

 

[butcher]

I was just re-reading this post am I supposed to mix the Greg stuff back with the water?

At this point lets just dry out the "Greg stuff".

Also, I put the solution in the sun to heat up I tested it but it was still negative.

Good.

How long would I have t keep the copper in there?

The copper will consume excess or free acids or oxidizers, and if there were metals of value dissolved in solution the copper will dissolve to replace these metals, which will cement out of solution loosely onto the copper, and falling off as metal powders.
This is a contact process stirring now and then will help to help the metal ions in solution come into contact with fresh copper, it can also help to knock off any build-up of precious metal powders covering the copper...
How long well as with any chemical reaction, it will take as long as it takes. Much will depend on conditions, the composition of the solution, concentration, temperature, pH, how much free acid, if the solution is stirred, how clean the copper is and stays, exposed surface area, as other factors

If you brush off the copper and leave it in the solution for a while and check it again and find the copper is clean and shiny it has finished or is not reacting...
If after checking you find more black powders coat the copper you still have metals in solution.


I doubted you have values in solution, the copper will only react to any excess acid or valuable metal ions in solution, it will not dissolve any further after that.

You can leave the copper in the solution until you understand the next steps, Have you been reading about dealing with waste in the safety section? If so then we can move on to more steps, if not let us spend time studying so we can gain an understanding of what to do and what to expect...

After the copper has finished reacting, you can brush off any clinging black powder from the copper if there is any back into the vessel, leave it to settle overnight, and decant the liquid from the black powders or insoluble, do this by not disturbing the liquid if possible leaving the powders at the bottom, to filter.

You could add this filter to the "Greg stuff" you are drying out.

I do not expect you will have any values in solution but this will tell the story.

After you remove values from solution (If any) we could save this copper solution for recovery processes.

But we will recover the copper from the solution.
By what you are learning about when reading dealing with waste.

You may not have seen the copper reacting in the last step (if no values were in solution), but we will see a clearer reaction in our next step of cementing the copper from solution using a piece of rebar.

Where are the pictures?
Where are your questions you are getting as you study dealing with waste?

 

[GoldrecoveryNoob]

Good Day Everyone so I have been putting the waste in a large container with copper but nothing happened as you said there is probably no excess acid. Now I have the grey muck and the scrap that still had on gold. I washed the grey muck with distilled water and filter( It is still like muck) and left it alone in a container. Now I washed the scrap that still had on gold with distilled water and the wash water was green(assuming the copper in the scrap reacted with the acid and made I guess green copper salts?). I wanna find out how to filter the green copper salts and deal with the grey muck now.

 

[butcher]

Good day,
You can move forward any way you wish, and take advice from anyone you wish.

Before I go further have you been studying how to deal with waste?

If you have been then you should be gaining an understanding of where to go next.

So nothing happened when you added copper, can you explain why nothing happened, (besides maybe the acid was all reduced to salts), why was there no chemical reaction, why adding copper did not give a reaction...?

Spend some time on some more important things, let us look at dealing with the hazardous toxic waste we have generated so far.


Take the solution as you learned in your study of dealing with waste and put a clean bar of iron or steel in it. Observe what happens, tell me now is the acid all "used up" what is going on and why? Is there a chemical reaction now? Why? What happens?




We can use a couple of bases like NaOH, and lime, so you can look for a source of those while you are studying the lye we can use to help remove some of the chlorides from the muck, along with some other trash or salts of metals, we could also use an electric hot plate with a solid iron burner plate, and a Corningware casserole dish (pyro ceramic dish) with a lid.

Add the "Muck" to the casserole dish cover with water and heat it up (keep it below a boil).
Lower heat, as much as you can to keep the solution as hot as you can, and yet not have the solution actively moving, so we can let all of the insoluble settles, you may see some light fluffy white stuff that will easily move around and takes time to settle, this would be silver chlorides, give them time to settle.
after everything that will have settled, we can decant the solution, but we want to do this keeping the wash water as hot as possible, move the wash water to another vessel, it may be clear but murky or may be colored from copper, after cooling you may see some needle-like crystals form in the wash water, that will be the lead chloride which is more soluble hot and only slightly soluble cold. You can reuse the cool wash water again to remove more lead. Continue these washes until you no longer get lead salts when the wash water is cooled...

Using what you have been studying in safety use your PPE and take other precautions...


Now with the muck in the dish on the hot plate I would cover with water and add about as much NaOH as you have "Muck" we will add just a little heat and stirring with a glass rod, fiberglass rod or similar, you may see the "Muck changing colors or getting darker. The caustic will help us to remove some of the chloride salts (from the "Muck") and some of the more amphoteric base metals... After stirring the powders well under low heat and keeping the powders crushed, the metal chloride salts are becoming metal oxides and hydroxides, again letting every settle we will decant.

We can use this caustic wash in our waste treatment later after the iron has done its chemistry...

Now we can dry out the 'Muck" preparing it for an oxidizing roast.

Keep up with your study, of dealing with waste, so that you can gain an understanding, and maybe keep your eyesight for a little longer...

 

[Rotz]

CuCl white will dissolve in HCl.

PbCl2 white to clear often needle-like crystals fairly insoluble in cold water becomes much more soluble in very hot water.

NaCl is soluble in water (about the same hot or cold).

AgCl white fluffy takes time to settle, will (darken when rinsed of excess acids) and in light,
Insoluble in acid or water cold or hot.

White/gray dust coming when I process mixed stuffs like pin with plastic. and it is coming suddenly when I add a drop of distilled water.

Especially I have 2 gray powder,
when use nitric,
when use AP,
It is almost looking same.
I will try your metodology,
I will take a little dust sample,
I will try in water with room temperature, (not dissolve)
if not dissolve, hot water, (not dissolve)
if not dissolve, hcl & water with room temperature, (not dissolve)
if not dissolve, hot hcl & water (a little bit dissolve) Should I increase the amount of HCl
if not dissolve I don't know how I proccess

As I understood stannic chloride also not dissolve hot water or HCl. I need confirmation please.

"It might be tin oxides (metastannic acid) and then it will be hard to dissolve or filter." Göran
I guesss this is my answer about my last sentence. I found from another page.

Thank you for your helps.

 

[rickbb]

when I process mixed stuffs like pin with plastic.

Problem number 1, don't process mixed stuffs. Each item has it's own simple method of recovery. When you mix them you make messes and lots of waste.

 

[Martijn]

Rotz, tin paste or metastannic acid (grey) formed by nitric acid and tin is eliminated by roasting the slimes and leaching the tin oxide in HCL.
Silver chloride is only to be expected in nitric when tapwater is used or not washing properly after AP. CPU ceramics can hold HCL if not roasted.
Excess copper 1 chloride (white) in the AP process is dissolved by adding a bit HCL to the AP, air and time. Or test a bit from a filter in a test tube with HCL. It should dissolve very fast.
Adding distilled water to used AP can push water insoluble copper 1 chloride out of solution and create a white cloud. Or are you adding it to a nitric solution?

Study a lot and test small.

Avoid solder in any process.
Martijn.

 

[Rotz]

Rotz, tin paste or metastannic acid (grey) formed by nitric acid and tin is eliminated by roasting the slimes and leaching the tin oxide in HCL.

As I understood you mean
1. seperate dust
2. burn (it converts to oxide)
3. dissolve in HCl

Silver chloride is only to be expected in nitric when tapwater is used or not washing properly after AP. CPU ceramics can hold HCL if not roasted.
Excess copper 1 chloride (white) in the AP process is dissolved by adding a bit HCL to the AP, air and time. Or test a bit from a filter in a test tube with HCL. It should dissolve very fast.
Adding distilled water to used AP can push water insoluble copper 1 chloride out of solution and create a white cloud. Or are you adding it to a nitric solution?

Study a lot and test small.

Avoid solder in any process.
Martijn.

Some of the pins can't seperate easyly so I just try to see what happen if I work mixed material. I can't remove all of the tin. Because I processed some of the wireless and little pcb parts like phone etc. They have tin everywhere. I guess it comes from tin (solder).

After filtering, for the washing something remain in bunchner, I add distilled water. Then solution in erlenmeyer produce white dust. This is only valid for the nitric process.

As I understood, the situation is different at AP, it is looking CuCl (copper chloride)

Is tin a problem just in nitric acid or the same problem applies to AP?

 

[Martijn]

Separate dust? Just incinerate with filter and all solids together.

Or your distilled water is containing Chlorides, or you are pushing some salt out of the nitric solution that is less soluble in water. Perhaps change the capture beaker/flask before rinsing?

I have not had problems with small amounts of solder in AP, only Cu1CL forming after a while, which is just a sign of low HCL level, or Cu1CL forming faster than the oxygen can convert to Cu2Cl.

Cut as much as possible solder off. HCL can get expensive to treat PCB's

 

[Rotz]

Separate dust? Just incinerate with filter and all solids together.

Or your distilled water is containing Chlorides, or you are pushing some salt out of the nitric solution that is less soluble in water. Perhaps change the capture beaker/flask before rinsing?

I have not had problems with small amounts of solder in AP, only Cu1CL forming after a while, which is just a sign of low HCL level, or Cu1CL forming faster than the oxygen can convert to Cu2Cl.

Cut as much as possible solder off. HCL can get expensive to treat PCB's

%35 HCL 3$/5lt

Thank you for your support.

 

[Martijn]

The margins on e-waste are small if you can process industrial style. As a hobby scrapping pcb's is very time consuming. Many have given up or moved on to other resources.
Recognizing the valuable parts on pcb's and learning how to treat them separate is a rewarding hobby both in acquiring some gold and a lot of knowledge. You will not get rich from it and will have to treat a lot of waste chemicals with toxic metal salts.

But having to treat whole piles of bare pcb's with HCL just to get the solder off to recover tiny amounts of PM's is cutting away from the small profit there is to be made in my opinion.
That is if you don't count the hours you will put in from start to end.

How much e-waste are you planning to do? Just a bit or a steady supply?

Turning in the stripped and cut boards could leave you with the valuable parts to process and some cash from the scrapyard. The real value is in the components. The visible gold on pcb's (ENIG plating) is often much thinner compared to plated pins and contact fingers. Which is only microns thick. How much time and money are you willing you spend for a bit pm's?

Please try to be clear about what process you used on which material when asking questions. It's not clear to me when you're talking about AP or HNO3. Gets confusing for me and new members can make wrong assumptions.

For example: did you put cell phone boards in nitric?

Martijn.
Here is a link to get you on your way of studying the forum.
https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=28521

And:
https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=796
Have fun. Be safe.

 

[Rotz]

Dear Marjtin,

Nobodyy dont work on this issue academically. I start small trial to learn as operational. All of the scrap dealer collect this items then sell to europe. Because no refinery in Tr. I want to proceed with small step than I will make my own business. I have supposed to be know the toxics, acids, wastes before start because I am chemist. I see your concern because I see somebody which you answer. They have nothing and they dont know anything. But I have still readed since 1 month here. Everyday I notice new topic. I force myself for to be patient. I bought a fume cupboard, hammer mill. I rented a workplace. I notice if you want to make money, I have to find cheap waste. Chemcal is very cheap and I can reach every chemical inluded CN. Of cource I dont use ) just I want to express my opportunity. I understood that depopulation and distmastling is very important. Then true process. I also reserching machine from china in this issue. However I research, I start this job oldschool and primitive style. But I promise myself about improve this situation. I hope I can be catch success. Firstly I want to keep strike a ledger. I like to learn and I am a skillful man. I am verygood about mecanic and electric. I improved myself. So I believe I will learn this business but I am not sure can I gain money. This is my story. I am consuming a time a lot. This forum is invaluable. Thank you. I will read the links thank you.