How to assay sweeps

Gold Refining Forum

Help Support Gold Refining Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
4Metals,

I stopped doing scorifications many years ago. I should point out that I only did scorifications on gold filled materials. Anyway, I switched to straight cupellations using 2" cupels and 20 grams lead. to a 0.5 gram sample I added 0.5 gram silver inquart.

Many side-by-side assays as well as ICP analysis proved to me that the scorification losses were excessive and the modified straight cupellation was better.
 
Idea is good, I see the point ... I can melt already (need only fluxes) with a Hoke torch (the old owner used oxy-methane). Unfortunately I don't have any furnace yet, just an incinerator that needs to be modified to pyrolize instead (originally was your idea in an old thread of mine) or make my own to pyrolize and use the incinerator as is for other uses.
As far I can see a cupellation furnace is totally different from others so I'll get either one or the other one when needed.

I'm ok with melting small lots already but I still need a way to incinerate/pyrolize, till now on hold but I need to come up with something shortly. Tomorrow I'll try go to the jeweler to see the volume of the sweeps to get an idea on the size it needs to be. Anyhow I'm still undecided if I'll be using gas or coke (both with an air blower), will see what work best for me.
 
Why don't you just built a small rotary furnace yourself?

They sure are nice! They can't be that hard to build. We've built most of our furnaces here.

Lou
 
I already have a rotary depopulating machine in my head and a 3D drawing already half done, I stopped drawing when I understood I could use a wash machine, fire bricks and a grill motor. If the project goes well I could build a rotary one for pyrolysis. As I understand those can be used to smelt also, any other uses?
 
Unfortunately I don't have any furnace yet, just an incinerator that needs to be modified to pyrolize

If you have an incinerator, you don't necessarily need to pyrolyze for processing jewelers sweeps. What is wrong with the incinerator? Maybe we can help you get it up and running. Pyrolysis was mentioned because it can be done in a gas melter cheaper than investing in an incinerator, but if you have an incinerator already all it needs is an afterburner with a retention time of 1 second at 1600 degrees F.

Pyrolysis excels for circuit boards because a typical incinerator cannot handle the smoke and chemicals that come off circuit boards.
 
4metals said:
Pyrolysis excels for circuit boards because a typical incinerator cannot handle the smoke and chemicals that come off circuit boards.
That's great to know and so my incinerator would probably work (http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=21613) modified or as is?

Marco
 
4metals said:
What is the inside diameter of the incinerator? And the inside height?
ID is 35cm (14")
Height from the base of the stainless steel container is 50cm (20") to the center of the exhaust, 60cm (54") to the bottom of the lid.

I've tried to create an afterburner in the exhaust while testing with some ICs but with poor results, will have to try again by directing the fumes into a little coke furnace.
 
Ok, a few things I have questions about. First, from this photo you provided, does the flame pass under a basket, up around the sides of a basket, or through the contents of the basket? And, the bottom looks like the floor seen outside the unit, I hope there is a refractory bottom.

MarcoP's incinerator inside.jpg

Unfortunately the burner comes in perpendicular to the circumference, I would like it better if it were tangential as the swirling of the flame path makes any incompletely combusted fume to remain in the heat zone a bit longer.

Incinerators use afterburners because it is hard to get enough air into the incinerator for complete combustion in the time the smoke from the burning takes place before it passes out of the unit as smoke. Generally the type burner you have gives you enough air for the gas you are using in the burner and does not take into consideration the air required to completely combust what you have in there. But with the dimensions you gave, it would be relatively easy to put a closed chamber in the unit and force the smoke from the closed chamber to exit the chamber at the bottom where the fire will ignite it.

I would first try to fabricate a round crucible rest that would be located in front of the flame. The flame would then bounce off the rest and begin to circulate in the unit. Then I would get a crucible that will allow at least 1 inch (2.54 cm) clearance all around for the flame and burning smoke to exit from under the crucible. Then I would cast a heavy lid out of refractory cement to sit on top of the crucible with a hole in the center into which you cement a 1" pipe that is flush with the bottom of the lid and comes up enough for you to thread on a 90 degree elbow. Then, thread in a nipple long enough to direct the fumes to the side of the crucible and into a 90 degree elbow facing down and continue the piping all the way down to the height where the flame comes out of the burner.

Now you place your unburnt sweeps in the crucible and fit the lid so the combustible fumes will be directed back to the flame zone. Now fire it up. The flame should provide heat to cause the sweeps to give off their volatiles and the smoke should be burned in the process of coming back up the side of the crucible after being directed back down into the heat zone by the pipe. A spiraling flame will help the smoke stay in there a little longer. Actually afterburners only need a 1 second dwell time in a properly sized and correct temperature afterburner.

In theory, the sweeps will get hot enough in the crucible to pyrolyze because there is no air in the crucible, or very little. The sweeps will give off all of their volatile gasses and essentially pyrolyze. Then, after the burn is complete, you will have to spread the pyrolyzed sweeps in a shallow tray and light them. They should burn like charcoal and not smoke just like a barbecue. Once the carbon is gone crush, sift and assay.
 
You want the truth about jewelers floor sweeps you cannot ever recover all the values using a wet method, the volume of material to the amount of values will never balance, if you get 100 grams first time you may get 10 next if you do it right, if you get more you didn't extract the values properly the first time. I did hundreds of them and in honesty I can't say I was perfect but my customers got treated right, I did my best which was better than many so called professional or commercial refiners.
You cannot ever extract it all using acids the same as cats but give your customer a fair shake and you have them for life and make a few bucks 8)
 
I think that most refiners who refine jewelers sweeps in acid just put it straight up in aqua regia. Back in the day, I did that on small lots requiring fast turnaround but I was always paying on assay. I knew I left gold behind but I also knew I would get paid for it eventually.

Then I read Harold's method for sweeps with a pre-treatment with Hydrochloric. I did pre treatments on sweeps with high silver using nitric and still left gold behind. I never, pre GRF, used an HCl pre-treat. It almost sounds counter intuitive but I tried it and it makes a difference. Having thought about it I think the real benefit is in the ability of the material to filter better having leached out the tin and eliminated the colloidal gold it forms. The gold comes out much cleaner and the yields are better than straight
aqua regia. If you consider the concentration of gold in the acid, then factor in the fact you cannot rinse it well if it drips all day, and it is easy to see why it pays to prevent the tin from doing any harm. Rinse well and get more of the gold where you want it and not in the residues.

The examples I made earlier in this thread about gold assays for acid refined sweeps are from small refiners who ship out their residues, I do not know who they are but it is likely they are not adding the additional HCl steps. A lot of those little guys have the customer witness so the more they leave behind the more they make.

But I agree with Nick 100%, take into account you will never get it all (but get as much as you can using an HCl leach) and pay the customer based on good returns, give them a fair shake and they will stick with you.
 
True that I want to earn as much as I can, but it is also true that I'm extremely honest and this always gave me high returns, at work and in life. I will leave behind less I can, hurting the retirement plan but giving the customer most I can. I need to prove my self.

Nick, thanks for the insight! The wet method is just to get me started, I will invest back all the refinement earnings into fire assay and into improving, or moving to a new, lab.

4metals, you did hit two nails in the head. The burner seems to be the main problem. It was designed to work with city gas but at the moment I have none in my lab. I've modified the burner to work with GPL but still not enough luck, even if little better. The flame is pretty short, too much oxygen also. I can see that from the redness of the basket, it's all at the center and doesn't wrap around the basket. With this flame even your afterburner won't work properly, I think.
The second nail is the bottom part, you are right, you see the floor and it needs a refractory base!

This weekend I was able to get a GPL burner which is also bigger in diameter and, the week before, a custom made stainless steel round coke grill, about 25cm Ø (10"). Before I do as you suggest I want to try to send the fumes thru the small furnace, I will post a picture while testing the new flame and the afterburner.

What I like from your idea is the lid, stopping light particles from flying around... I thought this incinerator would have worked out the box but it's not the case.

Marco
 
They definitely must be roasted.

In the past, I would do these first by gentle incineration, then milling with borax:carbonate:fluorospar (3:2:0.5) and adding an equal weight of silver crystal as the sweeps weighed.
Smelt at 1100 C, pour a cone, check the slag under a loupe and with XRF. Cone would then get remelted, thief sampled, put into an anode and sent to the cell.
Gold by parting of three 1 g samples; silver was not paid, Pd by DMG, platinum by AA.

Wet chemically, the post incineration HCl wash is a definite requirement. You run into real issues with some sweeps that have big chunks and shanks of Pt and Pt solders. Take a while to dissolve.


Lou
 
Lou, that sounds like a plan and one day I'll be able to choose which method suits me best.

Rotary furnace to incinerate or to smelt? I'm having troubles with the interior refractory lining, I believe it should have a smooth surface so the slag won't stuck but then, if I use it for smelting I can't use it for incineration. Am I far?

Soon I'll be making, as said before, a rotary depopulating tool and next a rotary incinerator/milling machine (if slightly inclined should concentrate the material) following the same principle. This to show that "rotary" and all its benefits was in my head already.

Marco
 
Rotary furnace for smelting not incinerating. Typically you put in a layer of insulating brick in the shell, then a hard face brick to stand the flux. Grout it all in with SuperHighMull 3200 F high alumina mortar. Plan on re-bricking it periodically.

Incineration you want indirect gas fired, low turbulence. You can also do electric with afterburner.
 
Back
Top