I accidentally added baking soda to my aqua regia solution

[Master Nater]

i have to tend to agree with where this post is going. i can tell you that i absolutely do not intend any ill-will in this comment, and in fact, am hoping only to encourage more conversation (and learning) by making this point. so, please do not take this as i "have an attitude" or i am trying to downplay any of your hard work. i do see day-in and day-out how hard some of you work to try to respond to folks as quickly as you do. and a lot of newer folks don't even understand that you're doing it from an entirely different time zone. so, from the bottom of my heart, thank you guys for all you do to keep this forum up and running.

having said that, i regularly watch this forum hoping to pick up tips and learn more. on top of my reading (and re-reading) Hoke's book, i would call reading on this forum a type of 'studying.' but i have to say, i do not care to post anything here about my own refining, or ask any real questions, because it seems that nearly every post from someone who isn't a "moderator" or "well-known member" is simply put down and told to "stop doing anything" until they do more studying.

it's obvious to all of us that most of you "well-known members" know what you're doing and have tons of experience doing it. you are a wonderful vault of knowledge, and i'm glad that you've put in as much time as you have to keep this forum running. but i ask what good that knowledge does when nobody feels comfortable to ask any honest questions because, there's always at least one person who jumps out tells them, "stop what you are doing and read Hokes..."?

that's not the point of a forum. the purpose of a forum is to encourage discussion and learning under the non-liable supervision of highly-knowlegable experts. it's clear there are pleny of experts here. of that, i have no doubt. but there doesn't seem to be much open conversation. if i'm wrong on this point, feel free to correct me. but making everyone feel too uncomfortable to post anything because they're going to get bullied, just because refining is not our full-time job, is not helping anyone learn about refining.

i also understand that from the moderator's side, i have witnessed over the last couple of months that there are plenty of instances where a few people are doing things that they absolutely should not be. these are easy to tell, because they are obviously putting themselves, their housemates, and the environment in danger by doing so. i do not believe that most of the replies that i just previously mentioned, fall into this category. i understand that nobody wants to be responsible for someone going out and hurting themselves. this post, is NOT one of those. to be honest, limiting your liability from someone hurting themselves is easy. stop giving advice, or require a disclaimer.

in closing, i'll try to make a point from a newby (less than 20 years experience) here. what would each of the well-known members or moderators say, if you asked for help on how to run a forum and a "communication expert" with decades of experience told you that you should stop what you're doing, until you read this book on "open communication by *insert random author here*? my guess is, you probably would not like to discuss anything with this person very much. frankly, that's the opposite point of having a forum in the first place.

i think it's time to have an honest and polite conversation why the forum is here. is it here to help people learn by promoting conversation? or, to raise money? i can't imagine you guys are getting rich doing this, and possibly choked on your coffee from the thought. honestly, i doubt you guys are even worried about money anymore. nor am i. that's why i have taken up precious metal refining as a hobby.

how about we get back to promoting conversation and learning, instead of promoting an atmosphere where people are too scared to ask honest questions and open up? thank you for your time.

God Bless.

 

[Shark]

There are over 30,000 posts on this forum and a huge majority of them started with a question. If the question can’t be formed in an understandable way, how can we reasonably reply? I hate asking questions, but I still do. By your terms, 20 years or less is a newby. Count me in the newby group. I didn’t retire from refining, I became disabled, I learned refining in my time recovering. Most of it pretty well documented on the forum.

Discussions? With 30,000 plus posts and over 335,000 replies, what would be the new discussion? There have been several of late and most about things I know almost nothing about.

 

[Master Nater]

If they need help dealing with life threatening chemicals maybe they should leave them alone until AFTER they know what they are doing. And yes, that is what I did.

this comment is exactly what i was referring to. can you explain to me, what is the purpose of this comment? do you come here to try to help people learn and spread wisdom, or do you come here to belittle people asking for help? i don't see much of a learning opportunity.

 

[Shark]

If they need help dealing with life threatening chemicals maybe they should leave them alone until AFTER they know what they are doing. And yes, that is what I did.

Should be self explanatory.

 

[Shark]

what is the purpose of this comment? do you come here to try to help people learn and spread wisdom, or do you come here to belittle people asking for help?

It is meant to be exactly what it says. I don’t play word games. I don’t belittle people. It is a simple statement. If it isn’t understandable then more study is needed.

To answer your question though, I come here to learn, and I have, and am still learning. If it means it helps others, it is even better.

Edit for spelling.

 

[goldshark]

this comment is exactly what i was referring to. can you explain to me, what is the purpose of this comment? do you come here to try to help people learn and spread wisdom, or do you come here to belittle people asking for help? i don't see much of a learning opportunity.

Just about every scenario relative to refining has been asked. The information is available, but requires some search. Most of the old timers have seen many of these questions asked, several times. I guess we just get jaded answering the same questions time and time again, when all the asker has to do, is search. Maybe we should become search engines, so when a question is asked, we direct to the thread, in lieu of answering an already asked question. By answering a question which has already been discussed, we now are muddying up the forum with more threads, making a search even more complicated. It is easier to just refer the asker to Hoke's book. Many people like to be spoon fed info, and I think this is my third reply on this subject, further muddying the forum. Some of the refiners here, who have come and gone, were self starters. When it comes to the thirst for knowledge, if you are interested in the subject, you will find all you need to know, is on this forum. So, read the forum threads, but first read Ms. Hoke a couple times , at least.

 

[Shark]

Maybe we should become search engines, so when a question is asked, we direct to the thread, in lieu of answering an already asked question.

Or, to save hurt feelings, we could just stop answering questions. Maybe that would appease everyone.

When/if I weren’t happy with the way things are, I would move on until I found a happy place. But, in my mind, I don’t have to like a person to learn from them. I just need to stop and listen.
Some of the most valuable things I know I learned from people with a grade school education. Some of my friends are not only collage graduates, but teach or taught college. One of those was the Dean at two collages with a Masters in Criminal Law. One has a PHD in Micro Biology. One has a Masters in Wildlife Management. Learning is a process and often requires proper thought and preparation just to begin learning. Isn’t that what high school is for, to get us ready for higher education? At least it used to be. It definitely isn’t a requirement but it sure can help.

Edit:
Take everything said on this forum as an opportunity to learn. Everything, not most or some of the things, and start to open the mind to learning.

 

[Yggdrasil]

so I am ignorant in a lot of this. I will say what is the point of a forum but to ask questions to more seasoned and knowledgeable people. I do think guidance is needed especially to the ones that know little. Just because you say go read a book doesn't mean they will. Realistically they probably won't. I get it it isn't your problem whether they do or not but what does everyone talk about here if not this. I'm not meaning to rehash ancient threads or be disrespectful. We should be taking people under our wings and helping them along the way just like we have had. Just because technology has changed and most people interact now online doesn't mean we should shun them. It's irresponsible in my eyes to cast someone aside when they are looking for help especially when dealing with life threatening solutions. Just my 2 cents

Welcome to us.
First drop the fully bold text, it is considered shouting and as such rude!
We have this philosophy that it is better to teach a man to fish than to continuously giving him a new fish.
That is why we advocate people to learn to do their own research,
one added benefit of this is that they then will understand the subject on a deeper level
and this might keep them out of trouble when things go bad, not if things go bad.

The ones that know little, should not be doing this kind of things unless they study!!!
Which is the cue, here is for your studies:

We ask our new members to do 3 things.
1. Read C.M. Hokes book on refining jewelers scrap, it gives an easy introduction to the most important chemistry regarding refining.
It is free here on the forum: https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=19798
2. Then read the safety section of the forum: https://goldrefiningforum.com/forums/safety.47/
3. And then read about "Dealing with waste" in the forum: https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/dealing-with-waste.10539/

Suggested reading:
https://goldrefiningforum.com/forums/the-library.101/
https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/when-in-doubt-cement-it-out.30236/
https://goldrefiningforum.com/threa...le-read-this-before-you-post-about-ore.33333/


Forum rules is here.
https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/gold-refining-forum-rules.31182/

 

[Yggdrasil]

this comment is exactly what i was referring to. can you explain to me, what is the purpose of this comment? do you come here to try to help people learn and spread wisdom, or do you come here to belittle people asking for help? i don't see much of a learning opportunity.

This is a two way street mate, he explained what he did and you really do not read or recognize it.

The purpose of his comment is two fold as I see it.
There really are no new things to be discovered, it is all here already, search and you shall find.
What we do is to give the new guys a starting point , and if they don't have the energy or will to study they really should find something else to do!
Secondly for every new group of threads or posts that emerge the harder it becomes to find the things that are already here.
This is the reasoning for the double post rule.

 

[Master Nater]

Just about every scenario relative to refining has been asked. The information is available, but requires some search. Most of the old timers have seen many of these questions asked, several times. I guess we just get jaded answering the same questions time and time again, when all the asker has to do, is search. Maybe we should become search engines, so when a question is asked, we direct to the thread, in lieu of answering an already asked question. By answering a question which has already been discussed, we now are muddying up the forum with more threads, making a search even more complicated. It is easier to just refer the asker to Hoke's book. Many people like to be spoon fed info, and I think this is my third reply on this subject, further muddying the forum. Some of the refiners here, who have come and gone, were self starters. When it comes to the thirst for knowledge, if you are interested in the subject, you will find all you need to know, is on this forum. So, read the forum threads, but first read Ms. Hoke a couple times , at least.

if you (and obviously a couple other people) sincerely feel that every question has already been asked and answered here, why are you still here answering questions? why do you feel the need to come here and point people in your direction? based upon your last reply, you do not intend to spark insightful conversation. in fact, why not just rename the website to Gold Refining Database?

people come to this forum to have a discussion. after training over 20 different apprentices in the electrical field, as well as over 50 soldiers on the battlefield, i can tell you that every person learns in a different way. what works for one person, will not work for the next. that is the benefit of this being a forum and not just some database. everyone gets to come here, and learn from their own approach, and ask the questions to fill in the puzzle-pieces that their mind is searching form. and that's what attracts new people here. this is not just some hangout for you and your mates to come here and work on your God-complex of how great you believe you are at chemistry. you're obviously not here to spark insightful conversation and learning. which is the very purpose of a FORUM.

here is your reading: https://elearningindustry.com/tips-spark-online-discussions

come back after you've read it all...

 

[goldshark]

if you (and obviously a couple other people) sincerely feel that every question has already been asked and answered here, why are you still here answering questions? why do you feel the need to come here and point people in your direction? based upon your last reply, you do not intend to spark insightful conversation. in fact, why not just rename the website to Gold Refining Database?

people come to this forum to have a discussion. after training over 20 different apprentices in the electrical field, as well as over 50 soldiers on the battlefield, i can tell you that every person learns in a different way. what works for one person, will not work for the next. that is the benefit of this being a forum and not just some database. everyone gets to come here, and learn from their own approach, and ask the questions to fill in the puzzle-pieces that their mind is searching form. and that's what attracts new people here. this is not just some hangout for you and your mates to come here and work on your God-complex of how great you believe you are at chemistry. you're obviously not here to spark insightful conversation and learning. which is the very purpose of a FORUM.

here is your reading: https://elearningindustry.com/tips-spark-online-discussions

come back after you've read it all...

Thanks for your reply. Sometimes I do reflect upon myself, and ask why I am here on the forum. I found the forum helpful in my self learning phase of refining. I have been interested in Gold and Silver from a very early age. I just didn't know the finer points of the various processes. I joined in 2021, asking and discussing questions, that for the most part, have already been discussed. I also received the same responses as you did, lots of hooting and hollering about "learn to search ". Then asking questions on more technical subjects, which I couldn't find via the search feature. Many of the mods did point out where to search, and maybe try another word. Very rarely did they just come out and answer the question, but many did, thanks guys and gals. Perhaps you should start your own forum on the subject. Then you could see what is involved in such an endeavor. I think all but the mods are paid. If you did start a forum, you would then see how much time is involved. This would leave you trying to figure out how to answer these questions in the most expeditious way. This is why the mods say "first read Hoke, then come back and ask questions". We don't think we are Gods, we are just trying to be as free with our time, as time allows. This means expeditious. I obviously do not know it all, and stay here for the mental aspects of the newer theories on various subjects which people ask, on more advanced subjects, as well as fine tuning some basic subjects.
This is not Facebook, if you have a question on refining, ask away. Just be prepared for the answer you get. It may not be what you want to hear. Please all, ask questions with details, it really helps.

 

[Yggdrasil]

if you (and obviously a couple other people) sincerely feel that every question has already been asked and answered here, why are you still here answering questions? why do you feel the need to come here and point people in your direction? based upon your last reply, you do not intend to spark insightful conversation. in fact, why not just rename the website to Gold Refining Database?

people come to this forum to have a discussion. after training over 20 different apprentices in the electrical field, as well as over 50 soldiers on the battlefield, i can tell you that every person learns in a different way. what works for one person, will not work for the next. that is the benefit of this being a forum and not just some database. everyone gets to come here, and learn from their own approach, and ask the questions to fill in the puzzle-pieces that their mind is searching form. and that's what attracts new people here. this is not just some hangout for you and your mates to come here and work on your God-complex of how great you believe you are at chemistry. you're obviously not here to spark insightful conversation and learning. which is the very purpose of a FORUM.

here is your reading: https://elearningindustry.com/tips-spark-online-discussions

come back after you've read it all...

Where do I start??
Every question on every normal situation refining wise has been answered and often from most angles as well.
So it is there for anyone to find.
And no one of us is payed, it is on our own leisure and free time.
We sometimes gets fed up answering the cries for help from "youtube students" doing most everything wrong.
Or the "know it all guy" that have little clue.
The reason for the often harsh replies are that this is after all a dangerous venture, and we need people to be alert and awake when doing this.
Next is the fish analogy.
If you learns someone to be self helped or at least understand the chemistry and processes behind what they do,
they will be able to read their processes better and be able to correct errors as they emerge rather than come here shouting for help.
When you have shown that you are willing to study and put in some effort to this we will of course help.
Actually we usually help anyway, but there are cases that can not be fixed.

 

[Shark]

i don't see much of a learning opportunity.

I did see a great opportunity and I used it. What I didn’t do is use it to ask every question possible. There is a post someplace on the forum from years ago where I explained why I didn’t ask a lot of questions.
If you see no opportunity here, again, what is your purpose here?
Have you tried the other refining forums? Maybe one of those would suit your agenda better.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Nater, you obviously have opinions on the purpose of a forum, and how it should be run. In the early days of this forum, I think you would have found what you want. But that was 17 years ago.

I put together a thread about ten years ago to help new members navigate this ever growing collection of information. While it doesn't get the attention it used to, you might at least find the first couple of posts of interest in describing why it has evolved the way it has.

If you care to, please take a look at Tips for Navigating and Posting on the Forum. It's not that we're trying to be rude, or that we don't want to help new members. But when members suggest studying and trying to search for answers to their questions. It's that members who have been here for a while got tired of answering the same questions over and over again.

So, we ask that new members put in some effort of their own. We ask them to read Hoke's book because it will get them speaking the same language as used here and understanding some of the basic principals of refining.

If members heed this advice, and we can see that they are making the effort, we can be very helpful. If members choose not to do their own work and simply want the answers handed to them, they usually receive the advice to do some of their own research.

I wish you luck,
Dave

 

[Darkthirty]

if you (and obviously a couple other people) sincerely feel that every question has already been asked and answered here, why are you still here answering questions? why do you feel the need to come here and point people in your direction? based upon your last reply, you do not intend to spark insightful conversation. in fact, why not just rename the website to Gold Refining Database?

people come to this forum to have a discussion. after training over 20 different apprentices in the electrical field, as well as over 50 soldiers on the battlefield, i can tell you that every person learns in a different way. what works for one person, will not work for the next. that is the benefit of this being a forum and not just some database. everyone gets to come here, and learn from their own approach, and ask the questions to fill in the puzzle-pieces that their mind is searching form. and that's what attracts new people here. this is not just some hangout for you and your mates to come here and work on your God-complex of how great you believe you are at chemistry. you're obviously not here to spark insightful conversation and learning. which is the very purpose of a FORUM.

here is your reading: https://elearningindustry.com/tips-spark-online-discussions

come back after you've read it all...

" after training over 20 different apprentices in the electrical field, as well as over 50 soldiers on the battlefield"
I'll assume none of your apprentices or grunts took ANY basic training or familiarity classes and you had no trouble or frustrations explaining the finer points of a dangerous occupation. I'm willing to teach anyone that wants to learn, yet I have zero patience for a person that won't self-educate. DEI is unacceptable when death is a possible outcome.

 

[Shark]

For the old time forum members, a question…..

How many times have you seen a thread start with “I followed a YouTube video exactly, except I changed a thing or two, what could have went wrong?” Or maybe, “I followed a certain post, and only changed this or that, why didn’t it work?” This leaves the ones trying to answer questions having to do research just to find out what was done.

I have not been here as long as many members have and I can not recall how many times I have seen these type posts as a first time new member post. It really doesn't take long to get old. It also gives some of the newer users time to answer questions while being watched after about getting them help in the correct way. This helps both the questioner and those posting answers. Giving both people a chance to become better at this. By being corrected for an unclear answer or wrong answer both people are better off in the end, and shouldn’t be upset by the correction. This what a teacher does.

Edit for grammar and spelling.

 

[anarxi]

One on the planet - not big and not small, but just the right size - was waiting for the defendant. He cannot help those who come to him, for even the Answerer is not omnipotent.
Universe? Life? Death? Crimson? Eighteen?
Partial Truths, half-truths, crumbs of the great question.
And the Answerer mutters questions to himself, true questions that no one can understand.
And how to understand them?
To ask a question correctly, you need to know most of the answer....
(с).

 

[Yggdrasil]

For the old time forum members, a question…..

How many times have you seen a thread start with “I followed a YouTube video exactly, except I changed a thing or two, what could have went wrong?” Or maybe, “I followed a certain post, and only changed this or that, why didn’t it work?” This leaves the ones trying to answer questions having to do research just to find out what was done.

I have not been here as long as many members have and I can not recall how many times I have seen these type posts as a first time new member post. It really doesn't take long to get old. It also gives some of the newer users time to answer questions while being watched after about getting them help in the correct way. This helps both the questioner and those posting answers. Giving both people a chance to become better at this. By being corrected for an unclear answer or wrong answer both people are better off in the end, and shouldn’t be upset by the correction. This what a teacher does.

Edit for grammar and spelling.

I may be too old, I really did not get what you proposed.
I think you may have jumped over a step or two?

 

[Martijn]

Just because you say go read a book doesn't mean they will. Realistically they probably won't

There is little difference between reading through threads trying to find an answer to questions you have and reading a book to learn the same. They're all words.

But reading the book will get you familiar with some processes, equipment, terminology, chemical names, reactions to different metals, basic chemistry and much more.

This builds up basic knowledge so you can actually start to look more targeted on the forum for processes and also on internet for information about your situation and the chemical properties of the elements, acids and compounds you deal with.

Reading through thousands of posts not knowing what you are looking for can take ages. And one will get lost.

We guide new members through this jungle, and warn them if they try to cut corners, but we ask to self educate themselves. If they only want simple and fast instructions to get results and get them, thet will get hurt.

So it's a bit of both.

this comment is exactly what i was referring to. can you explain to me, what is the purpose of this comment? do you come here to try to help people learn and spread wisdom, or do you come here to belittle people asking for help? i don't see much of a learning opportunity.

It was a warning from personal experience.
And a forum is to share knowledge and confirm or debunk statements.

For the old time forum members, a question…..

How many times have you seen a thread start with “I followed a YouTube video exactly, except I changed a thing or two, what could have went wrong?” Or maybe, “I followed a certain post, and only changed this or that, why didn’t it work?” This leaves the ones trying to answer questions having to do research just to find out what was done.

I have not been here as long as many members have and I can not recall how many times I have seen these type posts as a first time new member post. It really doesn't take long to get old. It also gives some of the newer users time to answer questions while being watched after about getting them help in the correct way. This helps both the questioner and those posting answers. Giving both people a chance to become better at this. By being corrected for an unclear answer or wrong answer both people are better off in the end, and shouldn’t be upset by the correction. This what a teacher does.

Edit for grammar and spelling.

And if i may add: how much I've learned from looking for answers to respond to a question I did not know, but knew how to look for the aswer.

 

[Shark]

I may be too old, I really did not get what you proposed.
I think you may have jumped over a step or two?

I did it seems. Let’s see if I clear it up.

Many times we see a new members come in and with in their first few posts they claim to have followed a video or maybe even a post from the forum.

It often leads to something along these lines… I don’t have this chemical so I used this one instead.

Often followed immediately by the question along the line of …what went wrong?

An example would be … I don’t have sulphamic acid so I used baking soda, now I have mess, what went wrong…

These type posts appear pretty often as well as becoming more frequent.

Another example would be….i followed this video so I can be safe and not have to use acids to dissolve my material with. Again followed by … what went wrong?

By people with less experiance, but proven to be well on their way, answering questions. We have moderators as well as several members with vast knowledge who can/will come along and correct any mistakes given as advice. This allows the new person to get the correct answer, and teach the older member where they may be making mistakes as well. Like Butcher used to say “killing two birds with one stone.” This way we all learn more. These corrections should never be taken as an insult to anyone’s knowledge, but as a chance to learn more. Accepting it as it is and not trying to read more into it.

An example could easily be … I made a mess now what…. With an answer along the line of ….. store your chemicals and study more.

Being ask to stop the chemical use and study is a safe bet to protecting them and their pets and neighbors, and not meant as a way of saying we won’t help you. To many of these replies are taken the wrong way, when all it is meant is to be taken exactly as stated. Study more before practicing.