I got screwed by 2 different refineries

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nickvc said:
Miguel I have no problem with any business making a profit but the point I was trying to make was that perhaps the $5 treatment charge is in fact too low to cover the actual costs and that the implied profit was maybe overstated and included some of your actual costs....

Miguel as I stated above your approach I find very honest and open and I feel you will become an asset to your company and this forum, especially if you clear some of the mist that seems to hide much of what happens within the board processing world and give us all an honest view of what actually costs and real returns are.
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Nick - You're absolutely correct, the "Profit" I am keep referring too is not Net expenses. Of course there is labor, chemical, mechanical, and processing costs associated with refining the lots. Poor word choice, I am sorry.

In regards to 1) why don't we refine our own copper, 2) what are our actual costs with E-scrap, 3) Does the sky stay blue even at night.... (that wasn't asked, but I thought I would throw it out there)........... I HAVE NO IDEA.

I will be the first to admit if I don't know. Of course I could come up with some great logical deduction, but a definitive answer, no - pure conjectures.
1) I am not sure what we do with our Slag, but what I do know is that there are specialists in every industry. And like in most industries, we delegate different aspects of specialization to those experts.
2) Cost per ton is $100 million dollars - so the entire argument with RBrooks has been pointless because we always loose money on refining E-Scrap.
3) Of course it is..... Does a painted room in your house loose its color simply because you turn out the lights? Nay.

=)

Good night
 
The sky is not paint. 8)

The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering. As light moves through the atmosphere, most of the longer wavelengths pass straight through. Little of the red, orange and yellow light is affected by the air.

However, much of the shorter wavelength light is absorbed by the gas molecules. The absorbed blue light is then radiated in different directions. It gets scattered all around the sky. Whichever direction you look, some of this scattered blue light reaches you. Since you see the blue light from everywhere overhead, the sky looks blue.
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For this reason, the sky isn't blue at night because there is no scattering from the sunlight and you can clearly see the stars.
 
MiguelRosas said:
Does a painted room in your house loose its color simply because you turn out the lights? Nay.

=)

Good night
Click to expand...

Actually it does. :lol: :lol: :lol:

The color of the objects that we see are largely due to the way those objects interact with light and ultimately reflect or transmit it to our eyes. The color of an object is not actually within the object itself. Rather, the color is in the light that shines upon it and is ultimately reflected or transmitted to our eyes. We know that the visible light spectrum consists of a range of frequencies, each of which corresponds to a specific color. When visible light strikes an object and a specific frequency becomes absorbed, that frequency of light will never make it to our eyes. Any visible light that strikes the object and becomes reflected or transmitted to our eyes will contribute to the color appearance of that object. So the color is not in the object itself, but in the light that strikes the object and ultimately reaches our eye. So no light, no color.
 
If no one knows my wall is painted green, then it doesn't matter. There may as well be no color on the wall. If I know the wall is green and I turn the light off, I still know that wall is green even if I can't see it. So it is green even with no light. If it's not green when the light is off, then it cannot be green when it is on, because there would be no one to know if the wall was colored or not. The sky is blue and not green, because if it were green, we wouldn't know where to stop mowing....
 
Noxx said:
The sky is not paint. 8)

For this reason, the sky isn't blue at night because there is no scattering from the sunlight and you can clearly see the stars.
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Palladium said:
Any visible light that strikes the object and becomes reflected or transmitted to our eyes will contribute to the color appearance of that object. So the color is not in the object itself, but in the light that strikes the object and ultimately reaches our eye. So no light, no color.
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Noxx - Palladium: Clearly you guys believe these so called "Facts", but I must argue that 1) moonlight is bright enough to light up the midnight sky - so why wouldn't it be bright enough to make the sky a dark blue? and 2) Palladium - "Visible" light..... really my friend. I don't know about you, but there is a plethora within the light spectrum, so just because we don't see it (bc it's not visible) doesn't mean that Superman, or the Old Spice guy, can't see the color with their ultra violet light vision!!

So clearly, my illogical logic trumps your researched science :D



Claudie - Kudos!!! You are a man of genius!!


I pose this question to you all then - Is Gold not gold when there is no light shining upon it? If not, what is it called? ?????
 
Shecker said:
Once many years ago I was responsible for shutting down a car dealership that was ripping of their customers. I lived 8 miles from the dealership. The action, involving the California State Attorney General and the Better Business Bureau, took months. And it took a lot out of me.

Two years ago I shipped 8 pounds of fine gold powder to a west coast refiner by UPS. The gold was sealed in a special chemical shipment unit.
The package was insured. When it got where it was going the package was torn apart, the chemical shipment container was smashed, and the gold was gone. But because the receiving company accepted the package as is UPS would not honor an insurance claim. I don't ship anything by UPS, period.

If I was younger I would after some of these companies. But now I am 60 and have all kinds of health problems that relate to be a radiation down winder. So I pass it to others to go after the dirty boys (and they are everywhere). But if you need some insights on how to do it -- I've shut down companies and I've shut down a major drug network by working with the FBI (by major I mean 100 tons of cocaine a year).

Randy in Gunnison
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I need you help with no gold issue can you contact me.
[email protected]
 
Palladium said:
MiguelRosas said:
Does a painted room in your house loose its color simply because you turn out the lights? Nay.

=)

Good night
Click to expand...

Actually it does. :lol: :lol: :lol:

The color of the objects that we see are largely due to the way those objects interact with light and ultimately reflect or transmit it to our eyes. The color of an object is not actually within the object itself. Rather, the color is in the light that shines upon it and is ultimately reflected or transmitted to our eyes. We know that the visible light spectrum consists of a range of frequencies, each of which corresponds to a specific color. When visible light strikes an object and a specific frequency becomes absorbed, that frequency of light will never make it to our eyes. Any visible light that strikes the object and becomes reflected or transmitted to our eyes will contribute to the color appearance of that object. So the color is not in the object itself, but in the light that strikes the object and ultimately reaches our eye. So no light, no color.
Click to expand...

And that is the reason why, at night everything appears to be monochrome
 
Man this thread really made me laugh reading it out loud again....

Noxx / Palladium = *Don't trust these guys!!! They believe everything they find on the interwebs. :p



*this is a joke for all you serious** people.

**THIS has been a public service announcement
 
4metals said:
I hear a lot of complaints about being ripped off by refiners but it seems that few people know how to prevent it. How many of you would go into a bank with a pile of money and tell the teller that you don't know how much is here but if they will count it and credit your account you would appreciate it. You know sooner or later you'll get ripped off. Going to a refiner and handing them a pile of scrap to pay you for is the exact same thing. If you don't have the capabilities to melt the material go to the refinery and witness the melt, don't let it leave your sight. If the melt was large enough they will take a dip sample, make sure the melt is molten and stirred before sampling. If it is a smaller melt, still make sure it is molten and stirred before they pour it. Inspect the bar and the slag after the pour. If the slag has alot of beads put it in a bag and take it, it contains your metal. Now they will either drill your bar, make sure if it is a drilling they take it from both the top and bottom, if they took a dip sample they will cut it into small pieces. Both the cutting of the dip sample and the drilling will be done in front of you. They will package up 3 small samples of at least 1 1/2 grams each (1 pennyweight) I would request more sample, at least 3 grams so you have extra in case you need to run another assay. You take 1 sample, they keep 1 sample, and a 3rd is for an independent assayer in case you don't agree with their assay. I like to request the right to take my bar back if we don't agree on assay, so since all bars tend to look alike, sign the bar on both sides with a marking pen. Also sign the seal of the umpire sample. If you follow these steps they will know you have been around the block before and your settlement will be treated with respect. Now before you leave take a receipt with you which states the weight they will be paying you for. It should be the weight of the bar plus the weight of their sample, plus the weight of the umpire sample. Now it's just like you counted the money before going into the bank and you have a receipt. You now have recourse if you don't like the result!..Of course you have a written list of what the charges will be for the refining services, what metals they will be paying for (don't let them keep your silver either) And you had it before you went to the refiner in the first place. To be fair to the refiner, because there are refiners who do legitimate business and are entitled to make a reasonable profit, you will be paid a percentage of all metals refined and if some metals do not reach a minimum deduction you will not be paid for them. There are also things like splitting limits which means if your assay differs from their assay by more than a defined percentage (never over 0.25%) you will use the umpire sample to determine who is right. If you are within the splitting limits you split the difference. Umpire assays are not cheap and the looser pays the tab. Shop a few refiners, read their terms and do what I wrote above and you should be OK for melt-able scrap. Find a decent assayer and have your sample assayed, in the event of a difference, keep track of who wins, if your assayer looses too often, find another. A good assayer is like a good heart doctor except they don't make as much money.

If you follow the procedure above you will leave the refiner with no cash in hand, but you will have receipts which are legal documents. Send out your assay sample ASAP and when you have a result call the refiner to exchange assays. In most cases they will tell you their assays first, if their number is higher accept it and go to the next metal. This process will take a few days longer if PGM's are in the bar but you can usually settle gold and silver within 2 days. When you settle you tell them which day you want them to price your metal and they will cut a check for you on that day.

There are similar precautions for non melt-able scrap and if anyone is interested just ask. It isn't fair to complain about being ripped off if you didn't go into the refinery prepared.
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good piece of information
 
4metals said:
I would assume the 2% loss the refiner accepts is because on average 14 karat gold runs 56% so it's 2% plus off plumb. Most buyers calibrate their XRF to read 56 for 14K. If your refiner takes all day to melt you are either sending huge lots or they have figured out you won't come to rep a lot if it takes too long. Most shops I do business with can and do melt and sample on a 1000 ounce lot and you're out the door in an hour or less.

Does anybody do professional sample representation in Australia? Check out Inspectorate Griffith, paying a rep may be cheaper than accepting built in losses.

Another alternative would be to melt your material into bars and sample the bars for assay. I'm sure there are decent assayers down under. Refiners are getting very competitive these days, if your lots are big enough you may get the refiner to sample the melt when you melt it instead of when he melts it.
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this is my very first post.i have been reading your posts , they are very educational. i have just started to buy gold from jewelers and take it to NYC refiners and as you said they seem to calibrate their XRF to read 56. so far havent made any money, (waiting for fire assay results, which will be ready monday oct.3rd). it seems like you are very educated about this subject and are able to explain the issue in a very understandable simple way. So i like to know what are your thoughts about melting your own gold and refining it , what would be your recommendations on which machinery one should use to melt 2 to 3 kilo gold at a time 3 times per week.and would it be worth to refine such amount if it does what would you recommend to use to refine such amount.
best regards
 
Matthew: Harold V, Noxx, or a few others can tell you better about the equipment needed to refine in kilo+ lots, their earlier post will probably have the answers for you.
If you can refine to standard then shot it to 10K, 14K, 18K plumb you might be able to resell to the jewelry / jeweler tradesmen at a price a little over spot. Several of the members here will buy at prices close to spot. Once you prove yourself as a reputable refiner you will little or no trouble selling your gold at a good price.
You will need to do a lot of studying of the forum and Hoke's book to learn the right way, start small and work up.
Work safe and be safe, Mark
 
Matthew,

First off let me say there are no actual refiners in NYC. There are plenty of operations that call themselves refiners but they all ship off to the majors and let them refine it. There are a few of these operations that also offer diamond removal which is in essence refining but that is the limit. Years ago, when there was a thriving jewelry manufacturing industry in NYC there were some who refined their gold and sold it back to the jewelry manufacturers.

Because of the equipment needed to refine metals and the associated operating cost, you would likely be better served melting your own material. This will allow you to sample the lot before you ship it, and since the first melts are the dirtiest, any melt losses will be under your control so you will recover any residuals when you process your slags. The second melt, done at your refiner should have little or no melt loss.

If you are financed well enough to wait 2 days to settle on a fire assay, you can get the best deal. By waiting the 2 days, you will be allowing your refiner to be advanced from his refiner and his costs will be lower and you should be able to get a better rate. You may be able to lock in a settlement price based on the buyers XRF result on the day you deliver but take payment on the fire result 2 days later. Ask for payment on silver too, it represents over $600 a week in metal.

Mind you 300 ounces a week isn't a huge amount but you should be able to get about 99.25% accountability and settle in 2 days. (Dealers in NYC are hungry, you may do better) On a small scale you won't be able to refine yourself and sell the gold for less, unless you already have a factory and employees sitting around being paid to do nothing. Rent and labor alone will cost the 3/4 % you're being charged. (not really but you're being charged $7200 a month for 4, 300 ounce lots and adding in waste treatment, equipment, and chemicals and you're up there .)

Melting is easily accomplished with one of these http://goldmachinery.com/machinery/italimpianti/melting/fim-5nt.htm
which will melt up to 6 kg quickly. It costs about $10,000 US and even speaks to you in 4 or 5 different languages.

Who in NY is doing your fire assays?
 
I tried do not do that, but unfortunately I have to. I have to warn forum members from US about acpeacemaker user/refiner.
I will try make story short and leave it without comments - will provide only facts - everybody have to made their own point.

Oct 9 I did post - question about yield of some boards on the forum. Same day received offer for process them from acpeacemaker in abot 2-3 weeks.
Offer accepted and Oct 18 delivered aprox. 200lbs of boards and other stuff.
Acpacemaker said again : 3 weeks and will be done.
Nov 10 first report about yield - Au and Ag - also scheduled next delivery and payment day Nov 18. Also acpeacemaker met with dealer and he offered 90% gold value for refined buttons.
Nov 17 - Andrew is in hospital - we can't meet, but he promised send me money when he leave hospital - I offered him I will come Nov 22 to save time and money of both sides - he said he will be in my area Nov 23 - Nov 24 and we can meet that day.
He was, but we didn't meet.
We also didn't meet Nov 24.
Andrew again promised send me money Nov 25.
He didn't.
Promised send money Nov 26.
He said his wife did, but don't have tracking number.
Nov 27 - no money and no tracking number.
Another promise.
Nov 28 - no money and no tracking number.
Another promise.
Nov 29 - no money and no tracking number.
Another promise.
I made a call to Andrew - he's not sure his wife did send money or not.
..................
From that day after hundreds of messages and few phone conversations I got around 45% of amount he owe me.
EVERY day he telling me different stories and promising send money tomorrow.
I'm feeling very bad, because I know he got some bills to pay from hospital, but he NEVER asked me to wait week or two - only thing I can hear is another excuse or lie and no money in my pocket.
Today I was at Walmart, because Andrew said he will send me money by MoneyOrder at 1.00pm and I have to just wait for transaction number. After 20-30 pointless messages and over 2hrs of waiting time decided go home.
I also got some bills to pay, got kids to feed and got stuff to buy.

I did call my lawyer couple days ago and described situation. Tomorrow will go again and will do some legal action - I'm just tired of this situation.
I'll be waiting probably longer, Andrew will pay way more than he owe me, but I'm sure - finally I'll get back what I have to.

I'm just mad on myself - trusted another time and another time got lesson.
Can provide EVERY one message form Andrew and describe EVERY phone conversation if somebody need that.
(sorry for my poor English - still working on it)
 
Heres what i have done for years to prevent being screwed. I purchased my own litle furnace well worth the investment. I melt all my own gold into little bars before i go to the refiner there are local refiners all over Canada and the USA. Im personaly from Canada so i go to express gold in toronto. They either x ray the bar or remelt it to make sure its evenly melted and no funny stuff is going on with the bar and i fully understand. I have never had more then 1 gram loss on large amounts since most the gold i get is from jewelry and i have not refined it usually can see some of the base medals rise as its melted into a bar. Then its xrayed and I also leave with no less then 98% of the gold content in the bar very rarely is there more then 2% silver content which i dont mind loosing out on because the time and cost of refining it out really isnt worth it.

If you cant watch the gold being refined dont send it simple solution save up and drive to a local refiner where it is done infront of you.
 
I got screwed by 2 refinery buyers also. The first guy was a smooth transaction, with no problem. I only sent a small bit to test the waters. It paid and tested just what I had expected. Then I sent a larger amount with 10 k, 14 k, and 24 k gold. He tried to say that the 10 k and the 24 k wasn't pure gold. I had tested it with test kit prior to sending . I ended up selling him just the 14 k gold. I had the rest sent back and sold it to another buyer.

The next buyer is in New York and they seemed to come up with a figure we agreed on. But I am still trying to get paid. It's been a month now or more. They were to send a check, I never got it, it was stolen and someone tried to cash it as a third party check at a bank. Then they were to send it by UPS, and that never got here. The truck broke down, check was lost, etc.. Then they were to direct deposit into my checking account. But they wouldn't' t do it until the old check was found and returned."even though it was voided".

I'm still waiting for these SOB' s to pay me. I call every day and threaten with lawyer and it isn't working. Any ideas?
:?:
 
If they are a business then they have to have a license to operate and buy gold. Find out who the governing authority is and call them. If he doesn't have a license then he's in trouble anyway. Call the state attorney generals office and file a complaint with them also. Make sure you tell who ever you been talking to at the business that that is your plan if they don't get you your money. Lawyers are great but when threaten with Gov. agencies most will not put up a fight.
 
goldsilverpro said:
I think the terms Respectable Refiner, Honest Refiner, Honest Lawyer, Honest Politician, and Benevolent Banker are all oxymorons. There are exceptions, of course, but no one knows who they are. Also, things change with new managers.
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Thank you, GPS! You made me laugh!
 
kclaptopsrepair, if you've had an issue with a member in a business deal, you should provide more details so other members can make their own evaluation. Simply calling someone a thief, without any further details, is a violation of our rules.

You can review all the forum rules at Board Policy-------This should be read by everyone, where you will find:
"Be sympathetic to other members. There will be zero tolerance for personal attacks on the board. If you are at odds with another, feel free to have a polite debate, but temper your words with wisdom. Post your position, doing so by sticking to the subject at hand. Do not make your comments personal in nature. Flaming is not permitted. No one will be allowed to attack the character of another. If you find yourself involved with another reader, and things don't work out as you hope, do NOT make mention in such a way that it can't be addressed by the accused."

Please remove your current signature line, as it will appear in all of your posts, and that is definitely against our rules.

Dave
 

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