Is this mask safe?

[GoldUser]

Hello,

I just bought a mask and wanted to ask for some advice.
For my recovery and refining I just use the Acid/Peroxide and bleach to dissolve with SMB.
From my limited knowledge there should only be chlorine gas, sulfur dioxide and maybe some hydrogen gas?
The filter I use is a A1B1E1K1. It says that it protect from it but I also read here that gas masks are also just not good for this purpose.

https://www.amazon.de/Gasfilter-5Vo...760036&s=diy&sprefix=a1b1e1k1+,diy,121&sr=1-2
David

 

[kurtak]

It says that it protect from it but I also read here that gas masks are also just not good for this purpose.

Dave - unless you replace the old cartridges with new cartridges EVERY TIME you go to use the mask - the mask is basically useless

Therefore replacing cartridges gets very expensive very quick

Please read the following links ---------

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threa...gold-recovery-and-refining.30777/#post-322682
https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/best-mask-available.13394/page-2#post-322689
Kurt

 

[kurtak]

There are cheap ways to build a fume hood - there is lots of info here on the forum about building fume hoods

Kurt

 

[rickbb]

Short answer, NO, no mask is safe.

Less short answer, masks are for limited use where exposure "might" occur, and for escaping the area in case of an accident. And as been noted, you must change the cartridges after each and every use. Most won't even last for an 8 hour day.

No mask is designed for use in heavily concentrated atmospheres of toxic gasses/vapors. Such as looking over into a container of hot fuming acid that is digesting metals.

Edit to add;

Did you read the specs on the cartridge you posed? It's for painting, not even rated for acid fumes AT ALL!

"Application: e.g. use with solvents from varnishes, paints and adhesives"

 

[GoldUser]

Short answer, NO, no mask is safe.

Less short answer, masks are for limited use where exposure "might" occur, and for escaping the area in case of an accident. And as been noted, you must change the cartridges after each and every use. Most won't even last for an 8 hour day.

No mask is designed for use in heavily concentrated atmospheres of toxic gasses/vapors. Such as looking over into a container of hot fuming acid that is digesting metals.

Edit to add;

Did you read the specs on the cartridge you posed? It's for painting, not even rated for acid fumes AT ALL!

"Application: e.g. use with solvents from varnishes, paints and adhesives"

Thank you,

this is the actual mask I just looked one up with the same rating A1B1E1K1.
Should have searched it from beginning sorry.
The description says it protects from the gases I work with.
Here's what the manufacturer says about it.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
The LUX-TOOLS filter cartridges A1B1E1K1 are optimally suited for use e.g. in handling solvents from varnishes, paints and adhesives, chlorine, bromine, hydrocyanic acid, hydrogen sulfide, sulfur dioxide, hydrochloric acid and ammonia. The filters also provide protection against organic and inorganic gases and vapors and other gases that react acidically. Depending on the concentration of the above-mentioned substances, the multi-range filter is intended for use up to 30 times the applicable MAK value concentration. 2 filter cartridges are included in the scope of delivery.

https://www.obi.at/atemschutz-zubehoer/lux-filterkartusche-a1b1e1k1-2-stueck/p/1211333

 

[GoldUser]

Dave - unless you replace the old cartridges with new cartridges EVERY TIME you go to use the mask - the mask is basically useless

Therefore replacing cartridges gets very expensive very quick

Please read the following links ---------

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threa...gold-recovery-and-refining.30777/#post-322682
https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/best-mask-available.13394/page-2#post-322689
Kurt

Thanks Kurt,

The manufacturer says its up to 30 time use.
Is this credible information?

https://www.obi.at/atemschutz-zubehoer/lux-filterkartusche-a1b1e1k1-2-stueck/p/1211333

 

[Yggdrasil]

Well things improve over time so uses may change, but for real life things, fume hood is the thing.
Nothing else will compare in safety and price over time.

 

[orvi]

Mask is always the last resort. Last defence. Once we worked on reaction scale up in our lab, in which copious ammounts of hydrogen sulfide evolved. We had everything setup in the rated certified fumehood, leaving only a 20 cm slit on the bottom to let airflow. Opened the window that somebody unintentionally cannot mess up the airflow when opening the door etc. We did everything what was required, informed our colleagues that we are going to do this and that etc., apologized for eventual minor smell in advance...
But in the end, I end up wearing gas mask anyway. Knowing the fact that in the event of electrical blackout etc. I will have some time to quench the reaction into the prepared bleach and safely leave the room
Mask just buy you some time and neutralize some good % of harmful gasses. Never all. Bear that in mind.

First and most important line of defense is to not allow the chemicals and vapors reach you. When you don´t touch acid, you dont´t have chemical burn. If your reaction evolve toxic gasses (like 90% of refining reactions), do not breathe them and you will be perfectly OK. It is easier said than done, but point is clear.

Second line of defense is equipment that assure you that in the occasion of contact, harm would be eliminated or greatly reduced. That is why we wear goggles and gloves when working with chemicals. Gas mask also fall into this category.

In specialized workplaces and also in the facilities producing vast quantities of toxic chemicals with workers present 24/7, there is also 3rd line of defense - specialized first aid kits and antidotes.
Sadly, if you just breathe excessive ammount of NOx or chlorine/HCl... Hardly anything will help you. But SO2 is bioactive and can mess up your blood pressure and heart rhytm, so for that, there are remedies that can potentially save you.

 

[Elemental]

To add to what the others have said, you want to consider a layered defense when dealing with toxic/acid gases. Removal and dilution are the preferred method of dealing with acids(i.e a proper fume hood), you can also look at neutralization (there is additional dangers in dealing with compressed acid gases).

A mask will protect your lungs if (most masks are not) the mask is rated for acids. Even then, how do you judge the life of the a filter? The best answer is, you don't. You replace the filter every time. Also a mask protects your lungs but not your skin. I highly doubt anyone here is in full Tyvek suits when doing their chemistry, but that's because most people are using a proper fume hood to remove the acid fumes in the first place.

It blows my mind that people want to get into a industry/hobby where grams of product are measured in $1,977.89 per oz. but want to cheap out on basic life and safety protections. There are used hoods available online if you know where too look. I've won bids on two of them, (one six foot fume hood I won for a dollar, although the freight shipping was pricey). www.ebay.com and Government Surplus Auctions - govdeals.com have them.

Anyways, enough of my rant. A mask is a great back-up if all else fails. It's not a primary or sole protection method unless you have a death-wish and enjoy the feeling of acid burns in your lungs.

Elemental

 

[snail]

I would like to point out the stated 30 times MAK is not 30 times use. It is stating a concentration level of the hazardous gases.

MAK appears to be an a German language acronym that translates into maximum workplace concentration.

Please do not guess at definitions. It could cost you your life.

 

[kurtak]

I would like to point out the stated 30 times MAK is not 30 times use. It is stating a concentration level of the hazardous gases.

MAK appears to be an a German language acronym that translates into maximum workplace concentration.

Please do not guess at definitions. It could cost you your life.

Per the bold & LARGE print - this is absolutely correct !!!

Kurt

 

[Yggdrasil]

I would like to point out the stated 30 times MAK is not 30 times use. It is stating a concentration level of the hazardous gases.

MAK appears to be an a German language acronym that translates into maximum workplace concentration.

Please do not guess at definitions. It could cost you your life.

Maximum Arbeitsplatz Konsentratzion or there about.

 

[Martijn]

Maximal acceptierte konzentration heist das.
The new name is grenswert. Af deutsch mein ich den. Grenswaarde where i live. Threshold limit value.

Manuals have to be in the language of the country where items are sold by the way.

There are some differences: Time Weighed Average (TWA) and maximum single exposure for 15 min max.
The first is for an eight hour exposure, every day without PPE.
The second is for short one-time per week or month exposure in case of emergencies.

The mask (cartridge) is rated for an atmosphere where there is a maximum of 30 times the 'MAK' concentration.
But then: for how long? Cartridge filter capacity is limited. And what if there is more than one hazardous substance in the air? Will it halve the concentration levels you can work in or will it shorten the time? Or both? And by how much? Do temperature and air humidity have an effect? Positive or negative?

Guesses and assumptions or science? Who knows... best be sure.

Read (study) the manual.

Martijn.

 

[Martijn]

The term mac or mak was abandoned since quite some time ago, because there also was a 'Minimal Advisable-' as wel as a 'Maximum Acceptable-' Concentration for food additives and nutrients. That confusion could lead to seriously dangerous mistakes.

Which makes me question the fabrication and expiration date of said product. Check again. Please.

 

[rickbb]

I just don't trust any filter type of mask at all. Get yourself a good fume hood and use any mask as a "hope I never need it backup".

Here's why.

I used to manage a nickel plating operation. made highly specialized parts. The tooling that held the parts in the plating bath would build up nickel and needed to be cleaned every so often. We did this by soaking them in 50% nitric acid, under a fume hood with constant cold water running around the container. This dissolved the nickel off the stainless tooling nicely. The stainless tooling was held in the bath with plastic parts.

One day some tooling would not separate from the plastic holder, so the operator just put the whole thing in the nitric bath. Then left for lunch.

When he comes back, there is a giant red/brown cloud fuming from the plastic holder not being compatible with soaking in nitric. He panics because he realizes what he had done, puts on his PPE, which was a full face cartridge respirator, full suit, gloves up to the elbow, etc. Goes to the sink to remove the parts to stop the reaction.

The fool sticks his face in the cloud and tries to grab the parts out of the bath with his gloved hand thinking the gear would protect him.

The parts are way to hot to handle with even the thick rubber gloves, burns his hands, he drops the part back in the bath, splashes boiling hot red fuming nitric everywhere. Luckily still under the fume hood and he was wearing full body protection which saved his skin, literally.

He comes running out to where I'm standing with the water hose, (I'm also in PPE at this point), I start hosing him off and he rips the mask off coughing his head off saying the brand new cartridges are dead. (Well no $#%@ Sherlock, they aren't made for what you just did and he knew it.)

After I pull the parts our using a large pair of pliers and keeping my head well back from the cloud we get everything under control, just 5 minutes before the plant manger was going to evacuate the plant of 500 employees and call in the fire dept haz matt team.

The reason we were able to control this ourselves is because I won the argument with the engineer who designed our facility over how big and what type of fume extraction system we would put in. He felt based on the numbers that something small and close to the work would be all we would need. I wanted that plus a large overhead hood with 10x the extraction rate that he recommended. Just in case of human error, he felt that was overkill, turns out it was just right. That's the only reason the plant did not have to evacuate and the haz matt team didn't need to be called in.

The operator was taken to the ER since he couldn't stop coughing, they x-rayed his lungs, no major damage luckily. But he was out of work for the rest of the week.

When he returns he gets all mad because I wrote him up and put him on probation for this and quits on me. He did me a favor.

From then on none of my employees treated the processes with such disregard as he did.

And FYI, this guy had a college degree in chemistry and 5 years work experience in plating operations. I never again hired an "expert", I hired people with no experience and trained them the way they needed to be trained. Never had a safety issue again.

 

[GoldUser]

I prepare some time and then work just once in 4-5 weeks outdoors. For that I buy a new filter every time (pricely fine with me). I was wondering if there is a difference between the circular 40mm one cartridge respirators and the ellipse ones with two cartridges?
I did some research now and I wanted to ask you guys if this is the right descision. Please oversee the fact that the circular one can get more concentration in this case. Its just about the diffrences between those models/techniques (circular/elliptical).

Circular: Dräger X-plore Rd40 Kombi-Filter A2B2E2K2Hg P3 für Gase, Dämpfe, Partikel | 1 STK. | Filter für Vollmasken X-plore 6300: Amazon.de: Baumarkt

Elliptical: https://www.amazon.de/Dräger-Safety...1652784505&sprefix=dräger+abek,aps,205&sr=8-5

I want to go with the circular I posted but want to ask for your opinions.

David

 

[Martijn]

Safety: taking a calculated and acceptable risk to perform a task.

Masks... okay... I get the shivers, but lets start with some questions for you:

1: Which task or process do you want to control with PPE? (Which actually should be the last choice of control measures to be considered in safety)
2: Which gases are released by that task?
3: Can those gases be avoided/reduced by choice of process method?
4: How much gases are you expecting to work in?
5: What is the capacity of your cartridge? (Read the Manual) The circular one can go for more than one shift, it says. But at which concentration? Have not read the other one.

6: Does working with a mask create additional risks that need to be controlled? (Safety section of product manual)

7: Last but certainly not least: Are you trying to protect yourself from NO(2/X) gases? Then you need the blue stripe on the cartridge. I don't see that one.

Yes, I'm filtermask bashing.
Stay safe.

 

[GoldUser]

Safety: taking a calculated and acceptable risk to perform a task.

Masks... okay... I get the shivers, but lets start with some questions for you:

1: Which task or process do you want to control with PPE? (Which actually should be the last choice of control measures to be considered in safety)
2: Which gases are released by that task?
3: Can those gases be avoided/reduced by choice of process method?
4: How much gases are you expecting to work in?
5: What is the capacity of your cartridge? (Read the Manual) The circular one can go for more than one shift, it says. But at which concentration? Have not read the other one.

6: Does working with a mask create additional risks that need to be controlled? (Safety section of product manual)

7: Last but certainly not least: Are you trying to protect yourself from NO(2/X) gases? Then you need the blue stripe on the cartridge. I don't see that one.

Yes, I'm filtermask bashing.
Stay safe.

View attachment 50157

Hello Martin,

thanks first for your time

1. With PPE I just meant that I'm wearing a lab coat, gloves and goggles. I associate this with PPE.
2. I just work with HCL/H2O2/Bleach/SMB/Borax (NaOH when I start recovering my stock pot for silver). What I know there are only chlorine gas, HCL fumes and sulfur dioxide from which I have to protect my lungs from (also eyes, ...).
3. I could not get a better procedure without those gases. I need the chlorine gas for making Gold III Chloride and sulfur dioxide to reduce the chloroauric acid back to metallic gold.
4. That's also a thing I want to ask you guys. There one's for max. 0.1% conc. , 0.5% and 1% (percentage in the air). I'm working outside but I cant estimate how concentrated the gases will be.
5. I just work like once a month and I'm totally fine buying a new one every time even if I could reuse them there would still be a mask full of toxic or neutralized material.
6. I'm perfectly in the right temp, humidity and can dispose of it at my local recycling company.
7. No I don't (want to) use nitric (or any nitrates, I just do chlorine based recovery/refining) because of my setup and because I still have a lot of respect from this acid (like sulfuric acid). I technically would know how to refine with those acids but from my knowledge they are much nastier/dangerous.

I know that a fume hood is the golden standard and masks are never 100% but isn't it possible to refine/recover without a hood? Until now I used a mask with two A1B1E1K1 filters in it and kept my breath until I was like 10m away. I'm just half a year in this hobby but tried to read as most as I can (I still do daily) but your guys opinions would really help me. Have no mercy with my posts

David

 

[Martijn]

Quote: That's also a thing I want to ask you guys. There one's for max. 0.1% conc. , 0.5% and 1% (percentage in the air). I'm working outside but I cant estimate how concentrated the gases will be.

There is the root of the problem. You can't tell.

You could use a water eductor to create a vacuum and scrub the fumes through a system with lye to neutralize any acidic gases.
There are many threads about scrubber systems.

 

[MicheleM]

Regarding Chlorine , do not overuse bleach , if you work outside a plastic lid over your container CAN help you to minimize the escaping Cl2 in a given time: it's safer. The lid helps because inside the beaker pressure goes up (very little , no explosion) and this additional pressure change the gas-liquid phase equilibrium, in simple words : more Cl2 come back in the solution ( chlorine concentration has a distribution: more in the upper part of the liquid, less on the bottom) and if you are very patient and in time oscillate your beaker back and forth to swirl the liquid inside, you will be able to dissolve a little more gold. But all what I wrote above is more Easy to say that to do in practice. I do not suggest to follow my advice for your first try. A possibile setback, if you are not patient, is to bring up the lid too early: this change the gas liquid equilibrium in the opposite way. Only if you understand what I mean with this last sentence you can use a lid.