Maybe Silver with copper, I dont know, help please

[Barreda]

I am also curious. I have never heard of testing for gold in solution using SMB. Could you explain how you use it to get a positive result.
Thanks,
Paul

Hello bigpadoda, thanks again for the advice and for your time, i mix the SMB with distilled water, cut a piece of paper (it can be a piece of an unused qualitative filter) dive the tip of the paper into the solution wich i think there is gold and with a clean spoon i get just a trickle of the solution with distilled water and SMB that i mixed before, and drop at the wet paper. if it turns brown there is gold, if not, there isn't gold. just a question, you told me to use a residue-free solvente, can i use just the normal álcool that we use to light the barbecue grill? if not, can you tell me more types of residue-free solvente?

Thanks again for your time.

 

[anachronism]

Tin + HCl. You've got access to both. Make Stannous.

 

[g_axelsson]

Stannous is so much more sensitive.

Solder from circuit boards and HCl is enough to make a test solution.

Göran

 

[bigpagoda]

I do not know what kind of alcohol you use to start a grill but any fast-evaporating solvent that is not oil-based should work. (rubbing alcohol, acetone, MEK etc.) Good soap, hot water, and elbow grease will work too if you rinse and dry it really well. The main thing is to make sure there is no residue left over from the oils in your skin or previous reactions.
I am still not sure about the SMB testing. It will precipitate everything below sodium on the reactivity chart which could be giving you the brown reaction as a false positive.
Have you made any progress on sourcing some Stannous chloride. It is available on ebay for a few dollars here. A trip to a good hardware store should get you something that is made of tin. It does not have to be pure (but it helps) 60% or better will do. Look for things that say "Lead-free" (fishing weights, plumber's solder, or electrical solder that is not flux-core) Stannous is the standard for precious metals testing.
Copperas is also very good. You can get some at a garden supply house (Ferrous sulphate, Green vitriol, Iron vitriol) Just make sure it is still bright green. It is also easy to make with iron and battery acid. It can be used in place of SMB (no odors) to precipitate PM's as well.

 

[Barreda]

I need to clarify some things.
1. All of the solutions you have made, and all of the powders are in the one beaker in figure 5 right now.
2. That beaker still tests positive for gold with SMB.
3. You kept all the filters.
4. Is there a brown film sticking to the side of that beaker.

I think you need to clean another beaker very well. Use a residue-free solvent (acetone-aclohol etc.) wear gloves, and dry it well. Carefully pour most of the liquid out of figure5 beaker into the clean beaker then use your syringe to suck out the rest leaving only the powder. Slowly add little amounts of HCL to the powder and dissolve it until it turns from brown to green (kinda clear). If it does not dissolve easily stop. Let it sit overnight. If there is any fine dark powder in it the next day that will be your gold (along with the brown residue that may still be stuck to that beaker).
Test both solutions again and post pictures of each.
Stannous chloride is easy to make if you have a source of fairly pure tin. many poeple use tin solder or lead-free fishing sinkers. Lots of info about how to make it on the forum. Copperas is also very easy to come by or make as well. Both ways work much better than SMB. The problem with having you try a new test procedure is that you need a sample of dissloved gold to make sure it works.
If you did make metastannic acid it will make filtering difficult or impossible. It sounds like you might have a very little bit. Most of it is probably trapped in the filters and in the new clean beaker. I wouldn't worry about that yet.

Hello, first i want to thnk you guys both bigpagoda and Göran for the advices.

bigpagoda.

I did what you said, i will show in the pictures.

- When i was trying to pour off the liquid to another beaker(that i cleaned with normal alcohol), i had kind a crystal on the bottom of the beaker and kind a sponge on the top of the beaker (picture 1), i have no ideia what that could be, so if anyone knows, please tell us.


- (picture 2) its the liquid i took off from the picture one(seems to have gold foils and a white powder)


-( picture 3) is the "rock" and Sponge on the picture 1 but now with HCL.


- after mixed the solution almost everything dissolved and become a white powder. (picture 4).


- conclusion i ended with a solution with some powder and a "green" crystal and a piece of something that looks like a sponge (picture5) (picture 3).


i did SMB test to for gold, but it was negative fow both solutions, the one with liquid and white powder, and the HCl solution with "Crystal" and "Sponge".

What do you think that things could be guys?


Thanks for your time and responses.

 

[bigpagoda]

In picture 1 I can see some black or dark powdery deposits on the side of the beaker and in some spots on the sponge and crystallized stuff in the bottom. I believe this is your gold. Picture 4 is that same beaker with some HCL added right?- if so that is what I expect to see. The other beaker#3 with the powder I think should be barren (don't throw it out.) I still do not see any floating foils in any picture.
neither of these solutions will test positive with smb because the gold (should be) already precipitated. I think in the beaker in picture 4 Have you made any progress with the stannous?


Not really sure how you got the neat crystal or why you made a sponge. I've re-read the process you followed and we are missing something it is almost like there is a hydroxide that has been formed.
The only chemicals you have used are:
Nitric acid
Hydrochloric acid
Sulfamic acid
SMB
Tap water
you have not added any lye or other bases- chlorine or anything else?
The reason I ask is back in the first set of pictures I do not recognize the blue crystals in the filter in figure 4. based on what you say they appeared after you added the tap water and mixed everything back together in figure5. They look like hydroxides to me.
the sulfamic acid should precipitate the lead as lead sulfate which you did not filter out. Have to think about this for a while.
have you heated the beaker with the hcl to see if the powder will dissolve any more (Don't boil or evaporate) also do you have any way to test the ph?

 

[Barreda]

In picture 1 I can see some black or dark powdery deposits on the side of the beaker and in some spots on the sponge and crystallized stuff in the bottom. I believe this is your gold. Picture 4 is that same beaker with some HCL added right?- if so that is what I expect to see. The other beaker#3 with the powder I think should be barren (don't throw it out.) I still do not see any floating foils in any picture.
neither of these solutions will test positive with smb because the gold (should be) already precipitated. I think in the beaker in picture 4 Have you made any progress with the stannous?


Not really sure how you got the neat crystal or why you made a sponge. I've re-read the process you followed and we are missing something it is almost like there is a hydroxide that has been formed.
The only chemicals you have used are:
Nitric acid
Hydrochloric acid
Sulfamic acid
SMB
Tap water
you have not added any lye or other bases- chlorine or anything else?
The reason I ask is back in the first set of pictures I do not recognize the blue crystals in the filter in figure 4. based on what you say they appeared after you added the tap water and mixed everything back together in figure5. They look like hydroxides to me.
the sulfamic acid should precipitate the lead as lead sulfate which you did not filter out. Have to think about this for a while.
have you heated the beaker with the hcl to see if the powder will dissolve any more (Don't boil or evaporate) also do you have any way to test the ph?

Hello, Thanks for your time.

Before i start, i attached some pictures of the SMB and Sulfamic that i'm using, because i would like to know if i'ts the same you use. SMB in my country is called Meta Bissulfito de Sódio, and Sulfamic Acid is Acido Sulfamico, i posted the back and front of the can of bothe chemicals.


I din't added any lye to the solution, in the end, i waited a few days, and yesterday i was with a black solution, and the crystals and sponge was dissolved because the HCL in previous pictures, just to clarify, Beaker3 and 4 on previous pictures i posted was the same beaker, the only beaker that is not the same it's the beaker on picture2, anyway, yesterday i took the beaker3 and pour off the hcl and in the bottom there was a white powder, than i dissolved it on nitric and distilled water and heat it a little, it became green liquid, after i took the beaker picture2 pour off the liquid and dissolved the the remaining white powder and gold foils in hcl, it became yellow but with a little color of green, i filtered it and in filter there was some black powder, i kept the filters of course, did the test with SMB (because i have no stannous yet) and it was positive for gold, mixed the green solutin and the yellow with little color of green together, used sulfamic acid, but nothing happened, i waited about 1 hour and filtered the sulfamic acid out the solution, i know its acid because everytime i used a paper to test if there was gold the solution started to react to the paper like its corroding the paper, so i heated some distilled water with SMB and poured in solution, but now, the solution stills black and acid and with no precipitation, just no powder, no nothing, just the black solution, like yesterday when i thrown the SMB in the solution, when i tested today, it was positive for gold, my question is, what should i have to do now? use the sulfamic acid in the solution (and if nothing happens keep pouring till i think its good), or should o do other thing? as add more SMB?

Again, thanks you all for your patience and time disposed on helping me.

I would like to say, that i'm reading the forum everyday, a lot of information of course, but i'm learning some tips, i'm enjoying a lot everything.


Thanks you all.

 

[bigpagoda]

Hello again,
It sounds like you have gotten everything redissolved and mixed into one beaker and you have filtered it. If that is true do not add any more SMB (Excess SMB causes a lot of oxidation of the unwanted metals in your solution). I think it is time to cement your values out of solution. It would help to know how much nitric you added but it's not necessary. If you can find a thick peice of copper that fits under the surface of the solution put it in there. If you don't have a copper bus bar find a section of copper pipe or thick solid wire(don't use stranded wire) .Put in an aquaruim bubbler and let it set for a day or two. The solution will probably turn very dark brown-almost black. remove the bubbler and let it settle for a day then decant it carefully there should be some fine black powder in the bottom, that will be your gold. put the solution into your stock pot for further processing of waste.
The filter with the black powder may be gold as well. I haven't had good luck capturing gold powders in filters (because I used cheap filters) and some of my gold made it through them so I only decant solutions when I precipitate now. I would let this filter dry then re-process it and the decanted powder to clean up any more impurities.
I would also take this little amount of gold and use it for my gold testing solution.

 

[anachronism]

Hello again,
If that is true do not add any more SMB (Excess SMB causes a lot of oxidation of the unwanted metals in your solution).

Hi Pagoda could you elaborate on the oxidation of unwanted metals in the solution? I'm not sure what you means by this.

 

[bigpagoda]

I'm sorry. I meant it would precipitate the unwanted metals in the solution.
Thank you

 

[anachronism]

I'm sorry. I meant it would precipitate the unwanted metals in the solution.
Thank you

OK, but excess SMB doesn't precipitate the unwanted metals in the solution. It might take a very small amount of copper out ( a VERY small amount) but the other metals remain.

There is no harm at all caused by adding too much SMB.

 

[Barreda]

Hello again,
It sounds like you have gotten everything redissolved and mixed into one beaker and you have filtered it. If that is true do not add any more SMB (Excess SMB causes a lot of oxidation of the unwanted metals in your solution). I think it is time to cement your values out of solution. It would help to know how much nitric you added but it's not necessary. If you can find a thick peice of copper that fits under the surface of the solution put it in there. If you don't have a copper bus bar find a section of copper pipe or thick solid wire(don't use stranded wire) .Put in an aquaruim bubbler and let it set for a day or two. The solution will probably turn very dark brown-almost black. remove the bubbler and let it settle for a day then decant it carefully there should be some fine black powder in the bottom, that will be your gold. put the solution into your stock pot for further processing of waste.
The filter with the black powder may be gold as well. I haven't had good luck capturing gold powders in filters (because I used cheap filters) and some of my gold made it through them so I only decant solutions when I precipitate now. I would let this filter dry then re-process it and the decanted powder to clean up any more impurities.
I would also take this little amount of gold and use it for my gold testing solution.

Hello Everyone.

Bigpagoda thanks again

A few days later i ended up with fine black powder on the bottom of the beaker, but when i tested the solution it was positive for gold yet, but i decided to filter that black powder and melt, now i'am with a black real little tin of something black on my melting pot stuck into the borax, i didn't wash it with hcl or tried to redissolve in nitric + hcl yet. I was thinking, the one of the most things that really scared me was the fumes caused by the nitric, watching a video on youtube how to make nitric on this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yE7v4wkuZU , i'm wondering, if i can seal a beaker with my e-waste, add nitric and with a garden hose filter the fumes to anhother beaker full of ice and with a erlen meyer inside full of water and filter (lead) the fumes to that water(H2O), can i do this to have a process without fumes? i attached a draw made by me on paint just to clarify my ideia (i don't know if it has been discussed on this forum, i tried but i couldn't find anything, so i'm sorry if it was been told).

* AND IF IT WORKS FOR NITRIC, DOES IT WORKS FOR AR TOO?

Thanks again!

 

[bigpagoda]

Barreda,
I am glad you found some of your gold. I don't know how much you ended up with, let us know if you can weigh it. It will have some copper in it still and should be refined again. If you are done with this solution it needs to go into your "stock pot" for further recovery of precious metals then treatment of waste. Search Stockpot and dealing with waste and you will find tons of information. I recommend you dissolve this little gold button and use it for a testing solution for stannous when you do get some made.
The drawing you made is similar to fume scrubbers that are covered well on this forum. Some are very basic and necessary if you want to protect yourself from the fumes. Look these up as well before you peice something together. One of the best ways to protect yourself from nitric fumes is not to create them.

I would like you to try another batch of memory fingers (gold only) using this process. (AP-Acid Peroxide or Copper Chloride leach)- lots of info about how this works here and it is very easy.
(Basic Process)
Carefully trim the gold foil portion off as close as you can. (You can use tin snips) Do not leave any of the small surface mounted components (mlcc's, resistors, ic chips) connected to the fingers. (but save them) cover the fingers in a beaker with hcl and a cap full of ordinary household peroxide add an aquarium bubbler and let it sit somewhere safe outside. In a few days the gold foils will fall off easily (occasional stirring will help.) and can be separated with a strainer then filtered out Rinse the foils well and melt. No nitric fumes and the solution can be reused.
HCL fumes are still harmful and very corrosive so it still needs to be respected.
Post when you are ready to try again and it will go smoother.

 

[LT_golden]

What stage of the process is the top picture please?

FInal stage, actual stage actually.

If that's the case then that brown around the edge of your glass is your gold sticking to the unclean surface.

Sounds and looks right to me

This is another case where anachronism’s blunt directness came out pretty hilarious. :lol: