glorycloud
Well-known member
Thank you 4Metals. I have a bunch going on this weekend but I will try and get
some pictures taken.
I appreciate your kindness! 8)
some pictures taken.
I appreciate your kindness! 8)
Neutralizer-Scrubber of acidic fumes & gases
- Thread starter Viy
- Start date
Help Support Gold Refining Forum:
glorycloud said:4metals said:
Well I guess I will man up and confess that that would be me. I bought one like this last December
but I barely have opened the box yet.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/141703806812?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I am just not a plumbing guy or good with my hands at all (unless it involves a sport requiring
hand eye coordination). I tried asking questions here but it's hard for some to understand my plight.
The easy thing to do was to simply buy a pre-made all inclusive system like this. I guess that I am
the "sucker" that is born every day.
After reading this thread, I am too fearful to set it up now and use it for refining with AR. Anyone
want to take up a collection to buy this from me and let it be used as a guinea pig for someone to do a live
test on it? Or maybe I should just chalk this one up to "lesson learned" and move on. 8)
Dear Glory,
Why do not you asked me for helping?
My goal is not only to sell the Device, but also to teach of buyer a safe work on it. In addition to the device, you received 5 step-by-step instructions. If difficulties arise when assembling the device, I explain through Skype. Despite my poor English, buyers understand me.
I immediately respond to emails and never leave the customer one-on-one with the device after the purchasing.
Note, all beginners are afraid at first...
Dear Glory,
Please before offering to teach someone anything first outline your own qualifications.
I for one would like to know your work history and background.
This site has a reputation for harboring some extremely accomplished individuals who are good enough to share some insights.
unfortunately, most who try and make money for nothing do not fall into that category and the precious metal trade attracts some of the lowest vermin imaginable,
If you had a paper or where the proprietor of a company of any description your provenance would be easily quantified.
If it is not easily quantified you have no foundation to be selling equipment or teaching very complicated and dangerous chemistry.
The backbone of this site is a scientific investigation and observation of what we have before us.
Please be the one in one hundred who can back up his claims and offers with some substance.
Let us start at the beginning.
Who Are You?
where do you work?
Viy
Please before offering to teach someone anything first outline your own qualifications.
I for one would like to know your work history and background.
This site has a reputation for harboring some extremely accomplished individuals who are good enough to share some insights.
unfortunately, most who try and make money for nothing do not fall into that category and the precious metal trade attracts some of the lowest vermin imaginable,
If you had a paper or where the proprietor of a company of any description your provenance would be easily quantified.
If it is not easily quantified you have no foundation to be selling equipment or teaching very complicated and dangerous chemistry.
The backbone of this site is a scientific investigation and observation of what we have before us.
Please be the one in one hundred who can back up his claims and offers with some substance.
Let us start at the beginning.
Who Are You?
where do you work?
In the following discussion, let's assume this scrubber works.
Let's take 2 extreme situations. In these, I am assuming that it takes 1/2 gallon of nitric, diluted with 1/2 gallon of water, to dissolve 1 pound, 454g, of copper. Depending on the dissolving equipment used, it could take less nitric. In both cases, let's assume the fumes are put through your scrubber.
(case 1) You have a sphere (minimum surface area) of copper that weighs 1 pound. You place it in 1/2 gallon of water and add a small amount of nitric. When the reaction subsides and the solution cools, you add another increment of nitric. You repeat this until all the copper is dissolved.
(case 2) In this case, the copper (1 pound) is a finely divided powder (maximum surface area). You premix 1/2 gallon of nitric with 1/2 gallon of water and heat it to boiling. You then add all the copper powder at once to the boiling 50/50 nitric. When all the copper has dissolved, you let the solution cool. In this case, assume the dissolving vessel is large enough to prevent foamovers.
In the 1st case, it may take all day to dissolve the copper. In the 2nd, only a minute or two. I guess my question is, would the 2nd extreme overwhelm the scrubber and exhaust fumes containing some raw NO, etc. I would bet it would. Have you ever tested something similar to the 2nd extreme? Have you ever tested, not only the quantity of fumes, but the rate at which they are created and enter the scrubber?
In most cases, the dissolving will be somewhere between the 2 extremes. However, I can visualize some idiot doing something similar to case 2. Therefore, I think it's criminal to intimate the scrubber could exhaust to the inside of a building. I think that not telling people to exhaust to the outside is intimating that it's OK to exhaust to the inside. After 50 years of experience working in 34 different refineries and seeing things that can go wrong, I wouldn't even 100% trust a 6' dia, 20' tall commercial scrubber to exhaust to the inside of the building.
The only way I would ever use this scrubber, assuming it worked, would be outside or, if indoors, inside of a fume hood with a separate exhaust to outdoors. At this point, I see it as being just too tiny and Mickey Mouse for me to trust completely. It would take a lot of experimental proof for me to feel otherwise. These fumes are quite toxic and are always foremost in my mind anytime I create them.
Viy, I trust your faith and sincerity about this but, from what I've read, I don't trust your practical knowledge.
Let's take 2 extreme situations. In these, I am assuming that it takes 1/2 gallon of nitric, diluted with 1/2 gallon of water, to dissolve 1 pound, 454g, of copper. Depending on the dissolving equipment used, it could take less nitric. In both cases, let's assume the fumes are put through your scrubber.
(case 1) You have a sphere (minimum surface area) of copper that weighs 1 pound. You place it in 1/2 gallon of water and add a small amount of nitric. When the reaction subsides and the solution cools, you add another increment of nitric. You repeat this until all the copper is dissolved.
(case 2) In this case, the copper (1 pound) is a finely divided powder (maximum surface area). You premix 1/2 gallon of nitric with 1/2 gallon of water and heat it to boiling. You then add all the copper powder at once to the boiling 50/50 nitric. When all the copper has dissolved, you let the solution cool. In this case, assume the dissolving vessel is large enough to prevent foamovers.
In the 1st case, it may take all day to dissolve the copper. In the 2nd, only a minute or two. I guess my question is, would the 2nd extreme overwhelm the scrubber and exhaust fumes containing some raw NO, etc. I would bet it would. Have you ever tested something similar to the 2nd extreme? Have you ever tested, not only the quantity of fumes, but the rate at which they are created and enter the scrubber?
In most cases, the dissolving will be somewhere between the 2 extremes. However, I can visualize some idiot doing something similar to case 2. Therefore, I think it's criminal to intimate the scrubber could exhaust to the inside of a building. I think that not telling people to exhaust to the outside is intimating that it's OK to exhaust to the inside. After 50 years of experience working in 34 different refineries and seeing things that can go wrong, I wouldn't even 100% trust a 6' dia, 20' tall commercial scrubber to exhaust to the inside of the building.
The only way I would ever use this scrubber, assuming it worked, would be outside or, if indoors, inside of a fume hood with a separate exhaust to outdoors. At this point, I see it as being just too tiny and Mickey Mouse for me to trust completely. It would take a lot of experimental proof for me to feel otherwise. These fumes are quite toxic and are always foremost in my mind anytime I create them.
Viy, I trust your faith and sincerity about this but, from what I've read, I don't trust your practical knowledge.
Noxx
Well-known member
Viy,
I'm willing to give it a shot. If you're willing to ship your system to Canada free of charge I will test it in various conditions.
I'm willing to give it a shot. If you're willing to ship your system to Canada free of charge I will test it in various conditions.
Noxx,
Yes, of course ready. Additionally, for tests I could ship 2-Qt reactor (see pic) with air vent suitable for flexible hose. If not, please tell me sizes of air vent of your reactor and I make silicone adapter.
Because I have no reputation among GRF, please all our deal should be made through eBay.
Finally, I found in my archive all diplomas (a chemical engineer technologist and PhD of Chemical Engineering), a list of the patents and articles, thesis abstract. One of my 1967 article I will lay out completely (unfortunately, Russian), because it confirms the abnormal increase of effectiveness of mass transfer, if packing is immersed in the liquid.
Yes, of course ready. Additionally, for tests I could ship 2-Qt reactor (see pic) with air vent suitable for flexible hose. If not, please tell me sizes of air vent of your reactor and I make silicone adapter.
Because I have no reputation among GRF, please all our deal should be made through eBay.
Finally, I found in my archive all diplomas (a chemical engineer technologist and PhD of Chemical Engineering), a list of the patents and articles, thesis abstract. One of my 1967 article I will lay out completely (unfortunately, Russian), because it confirms the abnormal increase of effectiveness of mass transfer, if packing is immersed in the liquid.
Attachments
Ralph,
Are you suggesting that these are made by one or the other authors of the link you posted?
Are you suggesting that these are made by one or the other authors of the link you posted?
Palladium said:
Thank you, good article.
There is a long way from basic research to practice.
The proposed Device promotes oxidation NO to NO2. The adapter on vent hole of the reactor has an additional small holes for inflow of air. This cools flexible hose and prevents condensation of vapors therein.
Analysis at this stage development (there is a smell in the room or not) is sufficient for technical purposes. Unfortunately, a tool at this stage of the study was my nose.
Now we are discussing the merits and demerits of the portable Device that is easy to install, disassemble, move to another bench, and so on. For that, it is necessary to determine a production rate and maximum load of one module (bucket). Depending on tasks, the number of modules can be increased (e.g., 2-3). The bucket with a motor may be easily equipped with a second one, they can work together and never burn out simultaneously. Motor bucket may have a long flexible hose. When working, it can be removed outdoor. Also, during a power failure, the System can be equipped with USB
my first attempt at a scrubber used silicon tubing and seals.Viy said:
It lasted about two days before turning to mush.
Not one pipe survives,all crumbled in my hands.
Now I use Teflon where I have to and QVF pipe every where else.
Also I found digesting with out including a reflux condenser and thermometer inadvisable.
why try and improvise a reaction vessel when you can pick up one made for the job second hand for under £50.
4metals said:
No sir! It was to give him some real insight that the scrubbing of gases and the kinetics involved are not as straight forward or general as he would lead one to believe. His statements kind of get out there, but i'm willing to listen and entertain ideas of science. Sometimes success comes from failures!
And the thing that bother me most is i know how much gold i know i can get into 2000ml of solution which appears to be the size of that flour measuring cup made out of soda glass! Second, if your reactor vessel fails what is you back up plan for fumes? You could use pyroceram as you back up for the gold because of the inferior design based on cost analysis and not safety as a priory, but 2000ml of solution suddenly free from a vessel creates a hell of a toxic vapor cloud that can fill a room instantaneously! What if these people are using this inside because of your guarantee of zero emissions? They won't even see this train wreck coming because they are novices in the first place to buy this system.
Interesting posts...I have to say the OP hasn't headed for the hills despite some fairly heavy criticism so perhaps he believes his device works as stated but I find it hard to believe it's safe to pump any reaction fumes back into the work area.
I am with 4metals here a lot of members could benefit from a good, cheap and effective scrubber system and I'm willing to give this guy some time to prove or disprove his claims but that needs some proper testing by someone we trust to be honest and unbiased with the knowledge to test the emissions accurately.
Should the unit not work as advertised I hope the OP will be in contact with all those he has sold the units to and inform them of the risks.
I am with 4metals here a lot of members could benefit from a good, cheap and effective scrubber system and I'm willing to give this guy some time to prove or disprove his claims but that needs some proper testing by someone we trust to be honest and unbiased with the knowledge to test the emissions accurately.
Should the unit not work as advertised I hope the OP will be in contact with all those he has sold the units to and inform them of the risks.
nickvc said:
That is what I ask, because an inexpensive portable gas purification system may be interesting for refining workshop.
I recently moved and have no way to do experiments to determine efficiency in extreme conditions. So I ask for help from experts which you believe.
Lou,
Those Drager tubes still require a calibrated airflow to suck the sample in to quantify mg per specific volume of gas and they still need the instrumentation in the lab for the analysis. And an established lab gets a long dollar to take and analyze those samples.
For testing the performance all we would be doing is the color test, looking for the red cloud, and a litmus test of the air blowing out of the discharge for a neutral to alkaline discharge.
kurtak
Well-known member
I built this scrubber for under $200 :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=19965&hilit=scrubber#p205184
That included the cost of the vacuum pump (from Harbor Freight)
Besides using it to scrub reaction fumes I use it for vacuum filtering
Apparently it is working as a scrubber should because I have been using it for over 2 years now & it has not destroyed the vac pump yet - in fact I see NO damage (signs of corrosion) to the vac pump as of yet
The vac pump sit's just outside of my hood so any fumes that "may" be passing through the scrub columns & vent out the pump are pulled back through the hood
Edit to add; - it only took me about 3 - 4 hours to build
Kurt
That included the cost of the vacuum pump (from Harbor Freight)
Besides using it to scrub reaction fumes I use it for vacuum filtering
Apparently it is working as a scrubber should because I have been using it for over 2 years now & it has not destroyed the vac pump yet - in fact I see NO damage (signs of corrosion) to the vac pump as of yet
The vac pump sit's just outside of my hood so any fumes that "may" be passing through the scrub columns & vent out the pump are pulled back through the hood
Edit to add; - it only took me about 3 - 4 hours to build
Kurt
Topher_osAUrus
Well-known member
Much more suitable than a dust buster and pyrex measuring cup.
On one of Viy's auctions, there is a "multi reactor" setup, using a coffee pot and hot platez with the tubing then coming from a hole drilled on top of the coffee ground chamber.
-how is that one going to efficiently remove all NOx gasses when there isnt even a tight seal between the coffee pot and the above chamber (i cant think of what else to call it, as i need MY coffee to get my mind kicked on).
And Viy, why must Noxx and/or 4metals contact you for the "free of charge unit" through ebay?... As far as i know *nothing* is free of charge on there...
On one of Viy's auctions, there is a "multi reactor" setup, using a coffee pot and hot platez with the tubing then coming from a hole drilled on top of the coffee ground chamber.
-how is that one going to efficiently remove all NOx gasses when there isnt even a tight seal between the coffee pot and the above chamber (i cant think of what else to call it, as i need MY coffee to get my mind kicked on).
And Viy, why must Noxx and/or 4metals contact you for the "free of charge unit" through ebay?... As far as i know *nothing* is free of charge on there...
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