Question about running cells in series

[Shark]

Jon, don't forget some of the harsh comments I made to you in the past. They could have gotten me banned as well. Thankfully that is over now.

Onward and upwards. The past is the past.

 

[anachronism]

Jon, don't forget some of the harsh comments I made to you in the past. They could have gotten me banned as well. Thankfully that is over now.

Onward and upwards. The past is the past.

That's ok I'm an acquired taste" mate. I still hate you so don't worry :lol: :lol:

 

[snoman701]

Jon, don't forget some of the harsh comments I made to you in the past. They could have gotten me banned as well. Thankfully that is over now.

Onward and upwards. The past is the past.

That's ok I'm an acquired taste" mate. I still hate you so don't worry :lol: :lol:

I don't know what flavor that is, but I'm sure it's pickled.

 

[Thipdar]

I've move the entire thread that originated in the Electrochemistry section of the forum here, leaving the few helpful, on-topic posts in the original thread.

I hope that everyone has gotten everything out of their systems. I understand there are those who would moderate this forum differently, swinging the ban hammer more readily. I've also been here long enough to see good members banned under that policy. For those who long for those "good old days", remember that some members who posted in this thread would no longer be here.

Let's get back to helping each other and discuss refining.

Dave

Thank you.

I believe this approach will resolve an irritation that was bothering me: staying on-topic.

I don't believe I've ever seen this approach used in any of the discussion forums I've moderated previously. I hope I won't forget this option if I am again asked to moderate a forum. Thanks for the education.

-- Thipdar

 

[anachronism]

Thipdar

I won't use the word that Kurt used. If I did I would be banned (again) because the utter bias of our some of our current moderators is astounding. All I would say is that your input is paltry and insignificant at best, and that your reaction and entitlement to being criticized exposes not only your lack of resilience but the shortfall we currently enjoy with regards to objective policing.

For you to thank our moderating team for their response says more than I can say.

 

[Shark]

Jon, don't forget some of the harsh comments I made to you in the past. They could have gotten me banned as well. Thankfully that is over now.

Onward and upwards. The past is the past.

That's ok I'm an acquired taste" mate. I still hate you so don't worry :lol: :lol:

I don't know what flavor that is, but I'm sure it's pickled.

Nothing wrong with an occasional pickling, some even claim it will purify if it is only a flawed surface, :lol:

 

[Thipdar]

I would like to make a suggestion (again) for future references. When looking for knowledge on this forum take a quick glace to the right of each post and notice how long a person has been a member and how many posts they have made. This gives you a good idea of where to start learning from those who have been around the longest. As Kurt mentioned, in the past argumentative people didn't last very long at all and still don't by the sheer reaction of many of the member's even now. If your here to learn, read, use follow up studies, and ask when you can't find the answer or even just need clarification on an answer. Over time you become one of the older members who have shown and earned respect for their knowledge. It boils down to respecting your elder's, and that means the length of time and useful posts a member has provided here not how old they are.

OK I am done with soap box.

Shark, I've read a bunch of posts that you've written and your advice usually seems sound.

This post doesn't measure up to your usual quality.

The idea that durability in this forum leads to better advice is wrong for at least two reasons - even if the topic is limited to refining.

First of all, it assumes that there is no other place to gain experience and expertise other than here. It's possible to have an advanced degree and decades of commercial experience when a person registers on this forum for the first time.

Secondly, even if it were the case that this is the only place to learn about refining, people learn at different rates. Someone that hasn't been here long might learn faster (and become expert sooner) than someone that has been here for ages.

Good advice is just that (regardless of how long a member has been registered on a forum).

-- Thipdar

 

[jimdoc]

Not surprised at all.

 

[Thipdar]

Hmmmm

Sadly this thread has become a total waste of time

Why ?

Because the OPs question have never been answered

Instead it has become an argument by Mr. "I Am Right" - even though he is in FACT wrong

Now he wants to argue that he is right to argue - even though his (starting) argument is wrong

consequently - I - the OP - &/or no one else has learned anything about setting up a cell as proposed by the OP

It has been a total waste of time now & for members in the future that come looking for an answer to the OPs questions

How much longer are we going to put up with this Mr. "I Am Right"

There was a time when we DID NOT put up with such B.S.

Kurt

You seem to have overlooked a couple of points.

My original contribution to this thread was to urge for safety.
Then Goran told me I was wrong.
He also made a claim that was wrong: "But you need a high voltage to push a high current through a body.". (You don't; all you need is an adequate voltage - which he admitted later).
He also made some other claims that were either marginal or wrong.
I refuted one of them and again urged for safety.
Then Goran told me I was wrong again and impugned my professional experience, apparently in violation of the posted "Board Policy".
I attempted to qualify my professional experience and he (rather cavalierly) dismissed it as being unimportant.
So I commented point-by-point, both agreeing on some stuff and disagreeing on some stuff.
Then I suggested that we return to the original topic.
Goran didn't see fit to let it go, and offered me a challenge that I readily accepted - and illustrated with a 'real-life' incident from my background.

Meanwhile, I've been Insulted, called names, misinterpreted and given unneeded advice.

What's been overlooked is that I've agreed with some of the things that have been posted.

I haven't seen anyone give me credit for attempting to remain moderate and respectful; the change from pacifist to aggressive didn't happen until I'd been repeatedly provoked.

From where I sit, it looks like several members of this forum got upset (I was going to say "butthurt", but slang seems to be discouraged by the "Board Policy", so I will use the less inflammatory word), all because I was able to stand up for myself.

That isn't a very good recommendation for this forum.

-- Thipdar

 

[jimdoc]

What did we ever do without you. Now we will all become experts at everything with you to guide us.

 

[Shark]

I would like to make a suggestion (again) for future references. When looking for knowledge on this forum take a quick glace to the right of each post and notice how long a person has been a member and how many posts they have made. This gives you a good idea of where to start learning from those who have been around the longest. As Kurt mentioned, in the past argumentative people didn't last very long at all and still don't by the sheer reaction of many of the member's even now. If your here to learn, read, use follow up studies, and ask when you can't find the answer or even just need clarification on an answer. Over time you become one of the older members who have shown and earned respect for their knowledge. It boils down to respecting your elder's, and that means the length of time and useful posts a member has provided here not how old they are.

OK I am done with soap box.

Shark, I've read a bunch of posts that you've written and your advice usually seems sound.

This post doesn't measure up to your usual quality.

The idea that durability in this forum leads to better advice is wrong for at least two reasons - even if the topic is limited to refining.

First of all, it assumes that there is no other place to gain experience and expertise other than here. It's possible to have an advanced degree and decades of commercial experience when a person registers on this forum for the first time.

No, in fact there are many other places to learn refining. It can vary greatly, from reading a book, watching the right video to visiting the home or shop of another refiner with many more years experience than oneself, down to a simple phone conversation and beyond. A newer member has not had time to prove to me their knowledge base. The member who has been here for years, with a great many posts that I can make reference to as being helpful, has proven his knowledge to me. The newer a person is to learning any subject the less he will know when he reads the right or wrong answer. He is at the mercy of the format the knowledge is expressed in, be it a forum, book or conversation. Looking to the older member can avoid many headaches from the start.

As a side note, an education does not mean your smarter than another person, it just means you had more schooling than they have had. Very often much information can be learned from those with lesser education. A self educated person most often makes the greater teacher.

Secondly, even if it were the case that this is the only place to learn about refining, people learn at different rates. Someone that hasn't been here long might learn faster (and become expert sooner) than someone that has been here for ages.

True, I often ask question of member's who have been here for a shorter period than myself. Primarily because they have proven their first hand knowledge to me and have worked in other directions than myself. When I need to learn the things they have already shown to be knowledgeable in, I am reasonably comfortable in asking them questions, but they are not my only reference, I can read and study other venues myself and apply any information that the newer person has shared with me. It is one of the great advantages of having been a member here longer than the newer person has.

Good advice is just that (regardless of how long a member has been registered on a forum).

I won't argue that, so long as one knows when the advice is good or not. On a forum with knowledgeable moderators and members we have additional references to aid with that. We can take that glance to the side, and get some idea of who should know what, then we can search their posts and see how helpful they have been in the past. It isn't perfect, but it is better than running blindly in the dark.

-- Thipdar

 

[Thipdar]

What did we ever do without you. Now we will all become experts at everything with you to guide us.

My advice is to try to inquire what qualifications a newbie might have that would bear on the topic being discussed.

Acknowledging that they might have some expertise in a matter might avoid the embarrassment of "shooting yourself in the foot".

You should be able to do that even if I'm not here.

-- Thipdar

 

[jimdoc]

Some people that think they are full of expertise are full of asspertise.

 

[kurtak]

Some people that think they are full of expertise are full of asspertise.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Or as Harold would say ----------

Wise people talk because the have something to say --- FOOLS talk because they HAVE to say something :twisted: :mrgreen:

 

[kurtak]

Based on my professional experience

Let talk about - "Professional experience"

I have worked as an electrician & MOST (like 95%) of it has been in industrial application

I have built electrical control panels for fortune 5oo & fortune 200 companies

I have then installed those control panels in the control rooms - & then wired the panels from the control room to the rest of the plant

Somewhere on this forum I have posted picture of my control panels

One such company/plant I worked for (my brother - who is an industrial electrical engineer & was the contractor) was for an aluminum anodizing plant

This job happened in 4 stages over "several" years

Stage 1 was a complete shut & tear down & then complete rebuild of line 1

The second stage was the same as stage 1 except for line 2

The third stage was an all new build of new line 3

The forth stage was an all new build of line 4

Each line had at least 2 rows of tanks & as many as 4 rows of tanks

The tanks are about 20 foot long about 5 foot wide & about ten foot deep

in each row of tanks there is at least 1 sometimes 2 tanks that are electrolytic cells with tin anodes & the racks of aluminum being anodized are the cathodes

these cells are run by rectifiers (DC power supplies) with the rectifiers being about 6 foot wide by ten foot long by 8 foot high with 3 transformers in each rectifier & each transformer is about 3000 pounds

The bus bars coming from these rectifiers are 6 - 8 inches wide & about 3/8 inch thick & stacked/bolted together adding up to being several inches thick

They are run from the rectifier to the cells FULLY EXPOSED (no insulation) - they are run from rectifier to tank/cell so that they protected by beams & other structure like pipe --- BUT they are other wise "fully exposed" - in other words - if you wanted - you could reach up & touch them

On the walk way where you walk between the tanks - and the buss bars come up connecting to the tanks/cell they are fully exposed & you could reach over & touch them

AND - that is because there is NO chance of being electrocuted :!: :!: :!:


So Mr. I am right --- you are WRONG as in ABSOLUTELY WRONG

Kurt

 

[Thipdar]

Based on my professional experience

Let talk about - "Professional experience"

I have worked as an electrician & MOST (like 95%) of it has been in industrial application

I have built electrical control panels for fortune 5oo & fortune 200 companies

I have then installed those control panels in the control rooms - & then wired the panels from the control room to the rest of the plant

Somewhere on this forum I have posted picture of my control panels

One such company/plant I worked for (my brother - who is an industrial electrical engineer & was the contractor) was for an aluminum anodizing plant

This job happened in 4 stages over "several" years

Stage 1 was a complete shut & tear down & then complete rebuild of line 1

The second stage was the same as stage 1 except for line 2

The third stage was an all new build of new line 3

The forth stage was an all new build of line 4

Each line had at least 2 rows of tanks & as many as 4 rows of tanks

The tanks are about 20 foot long about 5 foot wide & about ten foot deep

in each row of tanks there is at least 1 sometimes 2 tanks that are electrolytic cells with tin anodes & the racks of aluminum being anodized are the cathodes

these cells are run by rectifiers (DC power supplies) with the rectifiers being about 6 foot wide by ten foot long by 8 foot high with 3 transformers in each rectifier & each transformer is about 3000 pounds

The bus bars coming from these rectifiers are 6 - 8 inches wide & about 3/8 inch thick & stacked/bolted together adding up to being several inches thick

They are run from the rectifier to the cells FULLY EXPOSED (no insulation) - they are run from rectifier to tank/cell so that they protected by beams & other structure like pipe --- BUT they are other wise "fully exposed" - in other words - if you wanted - you could reach up & touch them

On the walk way where you walk between the tanks - and the buss bars come up connecting to the tanks/cell they are fully exposed & you could reach over & touch them

AND - that is because there is NO chance of being electrocuted :!: :!: :!:


So Mr. I am right --- you are WRONG as in ABSOLUTELY WRONG

Kurt

You've misconstrued my meaning. The reason I emphasized "profesional" was in counterpoint to Goran's implication that I know nothing about electricity.

Secondly, it's hardly surprising that your professional experiences are different than mine.

Third, can you please tie this in closer to the safety procedures related to the hazards of electrocution? You haven't indicated what voltage/current/power was expected in your example (except to imply that the buss bars were designed for high ampacity). Please explain how and why the electrocution hazard in your example was reduced or eliminated. Also, it would be good to know if those same approaches could be implemented in the system that Kaiser is attempting to design.

Your opinion that I am wrong is your opinion, but I absolutely did get electrocuted on the production line. At 5VDC, the power source was not "high voltage", as Goran claimed is required. According to the report he cited, it shouldn't have happened - but it did.

You don't have to have high voltage to get "enough to kill", you just need enough voltage to pass a fatal current through the body.

This hasn't changed.

--Thipdar

 

[anachronism]

Thipdar.

You appear to be the type of guy who is used to making statements and never having them questioned. Have you ever worked in education? Either way you never don't like being wrong and waste a lot of time trying to prove you're right or setting out assertions that reduce the validity of someone's experience that doesn't suit your narrative.

None of this would have happened if you hadn't jumped down Goran's throat the moment he disagreed with you. Your handling of that left a lot to be desired.

Nobody on here apart from you has an issue with being wrong, and that's where the divide sits. You have expressed your disappointment with the contributions of all who have disagreed with you, even in the face of their experiences which you have on many occasions tried to devalue.

Look I get that you are a person who for some reason feels that everyone else is wrong and you are correct but it's honestly not an appealing trait. This isn't a measuring contest it's a group of people who spend a lot of time being of assistance to one another and sharing ideas. The common denominator is that you don't agree with anyone else and you must be right at all costs.

Chemists have come here and tried to use stoichiometric calculations as to how refining should work and time over time a layman who has actually refined can clearly show that the qualified chemist is wrong in the real world.

Theorycrafting with regards to refining is (to use a quaint english word) bollocks and practical refining is everything. The same applies to the daft argument here. Practical reality over theory.

If you can agree to differ instead of having a fortress mentality, then things can work. At the moment and as it stands it cannot.

Regards

Jon

 

[kurtak]

Aluminum Anodizing rectifiers

AC input side = three phase 480 volts 1,000 amps

DC output side = 18 volts 10,000 amps for 1,000 square foot of cathode

No time to post more right now have to head for work

Kurt

 

[Thipdar]

None of this would have happened if you hadn't jumped down Goran's throat the moment he disagreed with you. Your handling of that left a lot to be desired.

Please take a look at this thread again.
I didn't "...jump down Goran's throat the moment he disagreed with..." (me).
My change from passive to aggressive happened after he implied I am ignorant of electricity.
(The truth is I'm ignorant of chemistry, which is mainly why I'm here).
When I tried to qualify my experiences, he dismissed them as trivial. That's inconsiderate (to say the least) and was possibly in conflict with the Board Policy.

Standing up for myself doesn't make me the Bad Guy here (even if it is unusual).

Look I get that you are a person who for some reason feels that everyone else is wrong and you are correct but it's honestly not an appealing trait.

Have you noticed that I also occasionally agree with people?
Have you noticed that there are times when I realize I have nothing substantial to contribute, and remain silent?
Have you noticed that the Board Policy doesn't require me to be anyone's personal punching bag?

-- Thipdar

 

[Thipdar]

Aluminum Anodizing rectifiers

AC input side = three phase 480 volts 1,000 amps

DC output side = 18 volts 10,000 amps for 1,000 square foot of cathode

No time to post more right now have to head for work

Kurt

18 VDC potential.

That's small enough to qualify as less than the assumptions mentioned in IEC.479-1.
If I remember correctly, their claim is that regular "safety" work boots provide enough insulation to provide adequate safety for workers in a situation like this.

IEEE Std. 80 might offer a different opinion.

Still, I don't think I'd want to be nearby if it actually arc-ed.

-- Thipdar