Question concerning the History of the AP process,..

[Anonymous]

I would delete the tiny link in the first post of this thread, it does not lead
were most would want to go.

Jim

 

[Harold_V]

While the link below the one in question shows what is apparently porn, I clicked on the one intended and found it does, indeed, talk about 'Applications of Hydrogen Peroxide and Derivatives'. I'm on a painfully slow dialup, so I didn't try to download the sizeable file (about 12 mb). If you have a high speed connection and are willing to review it, please do so and let us know if it pertains to refining, or not. I hesitate to delete the link if it could serve a useful purpose, but will do so if it does not.

Thanks,

Harold

 

[Shaul]

Harold;

I fail to understand why you would want to delete the link I posted to the book about Hydrogen Peroxide.

The original question was about the history of the AP process with the discussion evolving into other matters connected with Hydrogen Peroxide.

I posted the link because I felt that this book might answer some of those questions.

Published by The Royal Society of Chemistry and with 286 pages, it covers the history as well as the total (in-depth) chemistry and applications. It's a lot more than just using it for cuts and bruises.

Granted that perhaps it should now be moved to the 'Books & Other Info.' section, but to delete it??

I've seen plenty of things posted to the forum that have absolutely nothing to do with Refining. If you want to start deleting, I should think you'd have your work cut out for you.

Shaul

 

[Anonymous]

That was my fault, I clicked on the link in the message and it directed me
to material that is not only not refining but maybe at first porn, sorry when that popped up, I did not sick arround to wait on anything else.

I do no want to cause anyone any heart burn, I just thaught the site may have changed and the link may have been dead or something which cause
the wrong info to be displayed.

Jim

 

[Harold_V]

Harold;

I fail to understand why you would want to delete the link I posted to the book about Hydrogen Peroxide.
{snip of extended comments.}

Pleaser read my comments once again. You have them completely wrong.
Did you not read this part?

I hesitate to delete the link if it could serve a useful purpose, but will do so if it does not.

Harold

 

[Shaul]

Harold;

I both read and understood what you wrote. What I don't understand is why you didn't ask me first.

I would think that if there is a question or conflict with a certain piece of information, then basic courtesy would be to first ask the member who posted it, for clarification.

Instead, you asked someone who was not involved to "review it and let us know if it pertains to refining, or not".

The point of contention here is not whether the book serves "a useful purpose" but rather "if it pertains to refining, or not".

For this reason I wrote that I have seen many items posted to the forum which have absolutely nothing to do with refining, but yet are still there.

Shaul

 

[aflacglobal]

Shaul, I don't believe Harold was directing anything at you. He has slow dial-up so he was just asking that if anyone reviewed it and found that it was something different than what it said it was to let him know and he would edit the link. We have had previous problems with porno bombers in the past and tend to watch out for them. I don't believe he was trying to be mean, That's just Harold. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Shaul]

Hi Ralph;

I never felt that Harold was trying to be mean. It was obviously just a simple misunderstanding, common when trying to translate between english.

Also, I clicked on the link and it came up as the download site, if anyone ended up on a porno site, it surely didn't come from me.

Shaul

 

[Harold_V]

Harold;

I both read and understood what you wrote. What I don't understand is why you didn't ask me first.

Understand that this is nothing personal.

I have a job to do here---to insure that the board runs smoothly, and stays somewhat on topic. I have read your posts and found them to be informed and useful. I also clicked on the link in question and was directed to a page which, along with a link that allows for a lengthy download of the article you suggested, clearly showed another link to what appeared to be porn. I asked someone, anyone, to explore the proper link and report if it was anything but what had been represented. I was under no obligation to ask of you what it said, nor would it have been a good idea. I don't know what your motives are, although they appear to be sweet and pure, nothing beyond gold refining. I wanted a third opinion, for obvious reasons. A reader was alarmed at what he found by following your link. For all I know, that was intentional. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen readers use their sig lines or other means to lead to porn sites.

I would think that if there is a question or conflict with a certain piece of information, then basic courtesy would be to first ask the member who posted it, for clarification.

That gets down to asking the fox to watch the hen house, assuming you are not what you represent yourself to be. By asking for a reader to comment (not you) I'd expect to get the proper answer.

Yeah, I know, it's like I'm accusing you of some kind of ill deed. Looks like that, but it's not intended that way. If your feelings are hurt, I'm sorry for that, but I have a job to do and I do it the best way I know----which is often to get a third opinion (the reader that would report back if anything was amiss).

Get over it, Shaul. If you can't get over it, then change the link you provided, replacing it with one that takes the readers directly to the download, instead of the page that gives a link to the download. Had you done that in the first place, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The point of contention here is not whether the book serves "a useful purpose" but rather "if it pertains to refining, or not".

My response is this matter is closed. You are making something of nothing. I have no intentions of getting caught up with you and your play with words and meanings. I made it perfectly clear that if it was useful it would remain. Please drop the subject and get on with life.

Harold

 

[Shaul]

Harold;

My only desire was to provide a link to a book which I felt might be beneficial to others and if anyone ended up at a 'porn' site, I am truly sorry; that was never my intention.

I very much appreciate your expertise, openness and honesty, besides the hard work you put in, in service of the forum.

If I offended you in any way, you have my sincere apology.

Case Closed.

Shaul

 

[Harold_V]

Thanks, Shaul, for your understanding and your glowing comments.

I think it's clear that there is a lot of good that comes from this forum----we all have our best interest in its survival, and we obviously depend on folks like you that can provide much needed information. I try to look upon each and every reader as family! :wink:

Your link is very welcome, as are you!

Harold

 

[Shaul]

Thank You. Much appreciated.

Shaul

 

[Palladium]

 

[eagle2]

Palladium. thanks so much for the link. I have been wanting Hoke`s info as a reference/ comparison to my other authors.

Al

 

[Palladium]

Your welcome
Thank gustavus :wink:

 

[Palladium]

Great thread to learn from. Go back to page 1.

 

[jsargent]

Steve, do you have more data on this - or, your original source for your statement? Seems iffy, to me, but there could have been some isolated usage, I guess. Have you yet thought of an economical, efficient, fast way to use either of them on a grand scale? You could very well be on that threshold.

Chris,

I was using AP and HCl-Cl long before I realized it was used in bigger refineries as I have mentioned.

Here's the reference for my statement:

Hydrogen Peroxide and hydrochloric acid will dissolve gold. This is used in several refineries. One refiner reported that the recovery of PGMs was much improved when hydrogen peroxide rather than nitric acid was the oxidizer. The known affinity of platinum and palladium for nitrogen compounds make this a believable conclusion. Unless extended boiling of solutions to remove nitrogen compounds is done it is quite possible that some forms of nitrogen could combine and hold PGMs.

We have no experience with hydrogen peroxide oxidation. The use of the 50% grade is reported. We speculate that the metal is in hydrochloric acid solution and is treated by adding the H2O2. Because hydrogen peroxide is an unstable material considerable care in its use is needed. The stream of peroxide should not be introduced under the solution because of the chance of draw back to the supply tank. There the metals present will likely catalyze peroxide decomposition which can be explosive.

Hydrogen peroxide is a very reactive chemical. It also decomposes and a product of decomposition is a gas (oxygen). In low concentration and with a stabilizer this decomposition is slow. At high concentrations and/or in the presence of a catalyst (many metals are such catalyst) this decomposition goes at explosive rates. Damage can be severe.

A through education in the characteristics of hydrogen peroxide must proceed any work with this material. The manufacturers of hydrogen peroxide can usually give considerable information and advice.

The dissolution reaction is probably :

2Au + 3H2O2 + 6HCl = 2AuCl3 + 6H2O

I have also found this same formula in several texts.

What is odd to me about his mention of the use of peroxide is his lack of references cited on the source of the material. He has references throughout the book (just about every paragraph) on many subjects, but not this one. Just above this section he mentions HCl and Chlorine gas without reference also.

I experimentally stumbled across the use of AP for stripping base metals around three years ago. I've own this book for less than a year. I used AP to dissolve my first batch of monolithic capacitors around two years ago. The 3% stuff is super slow, but it works very well on Palaldium. I reallly dislike evaporating nitric acid based PGM solutions. With AP this problem is solved.

As for up scaling the reaction, yes. I have penciled out a contraption to use AP in a continuous configuration which works with circulating pumps, filters, and electrolytic reactions. Theoretically you can electrolytically rejuvenate the AP as it's saturated and recover the copper moss, returning the rejuvenated solution to the reaction vessel. In essence you can dissolve pounds of copper based pins in a very short time and retrieve the gold foils when the copper is gone. The copper ends up in a separate bucket in mossy form.

I built a prototype and turned it on, but the spent AP I used was too saturated when I first started the device . Huge amounts of chlorine gas were evolved in just a few seconds of operation. Ideally you would start with a fresh solution and turn on the electrolytic cell to maintain the proper CuCl2 concentration to affect rapid dissolution while plating out the dissolved copper.


Steve

I'm a little confused on the use of AP. The idea is to dissolve the base metals, leaving behind the relatively insoluble gold, right? My question is how much gold will be lost because it too has some limited solublity in AP, if I read correctly?

 

[lazersteve]

jsargent,

The short answer is that AP will dissolve gold very slowly.

The rest of the answer is that the amount of gold dissolved can be limited to a very small amount if the peroxide levels are kept to a minimum.

The true reactive ingredient in the 'AP ' reaction when use for removing base metals is Copper II Chloride. The acid and peroxide are only used to create the copper chloride needed to keep the reaction going.

When you are actually trying to dissolve gold it's best to use AR or HCl-Cl if the gold is in a finely divided state.

Any gold dissolved by the initial reaction with AP while the CuCl2 is still forming will be self precipitated as a fine black powder as the copper levels in the solution increase.

Steve

 

[jsargent]

jsargent,

The short answer is that AP will dissolve gold very slowly.

The rest of the answer is that the amount of gold dissolved can be limited to a very small amount if the peroxide levels are kept to a minimum.

The true reactive ingredient in the 'AP ' reaction when use for removing base metals is Copper II Chloride. The acid and peroxide are only used to create the copper chloride needed to keep the reaction going.

When you are actually trying to dissolve gold it's best to use AR or HCl-Cl if the gold is in a finely divided state.

Any gold dissolved by the initial reaction with AP while the CuCl2 is still forming will be self precipitated as a fine black powder as the copper levels in the solution increase.

Steve

Outstanding answer Steve! Clear and to the point and that's why I have found this forum to be invaluable. Many Thanks

 

[Nopyrite]

jsargent,

The short answer is that AP will dissolve gold very slowly.

The rest of the answer is that the amount of gold dissolved can be limited to a very small amount if the peroxide levels are kept to a minimum.

The true reactive ingredient in the 'AP ' reaction when use for removing base metals is Copper II Chloride. The acid and peroxide are only used to create the copper chloride needed to keep the reaction going.

When you are actually trying to dissolve gold it's best to use AR or HCl-Cl if the gold is in a finely divided state.

Any gold dissolved by the initial reaction with AP while the CuCl2 is still forming will be self precipitated as a fine black powder as the copper levels in the solution increase.

Steve[The rest of the answer is that the amount of gold dissolved can be limited to a very small amount if the peroxide levels are kept to a minimum.] I screwed up and I think this is what I did wrong on my first batch of fingers I just processed. I believe I added more peroxide than I should have. Per the video you sent me, all was going according to plan. As I agitated the mix, I could see Gold foils floating every where. I added another cup of peroxide and left overnight. The boards are now completely stripped and I have a beautiful clear emerald green solution, but there is NO Gold anywhere. It just vanished. Did it all go into solution? Should I drop the Gold out with a copper bar? I have searched the site, but am unable to find an answer. Your help will be greatly appreciated.
Phil