Refiners pay so much less

[Proses Makina]

When people try to get started in the business of buying and selling precious metal scrap, they run into two major problems:

- You need to be able to accurately test it.
- You have to be able to calculate its value.

How you could get the most money possible for my precious metal scrap?

How can you avoid middlemen to get top prices for your scrap?

Should you send your goods to the big refineries? or Should you refine yourself?

 

[AMS-Pro]

Interesting topic for debate.

I wouldn't say those are major problems, but they are definitely challenges. Once you figure out your technique to overcome that challenge, that is your trade secret/proprietary knowledge.

Accurately testing, well it depends on what you're working with.

I'm going to shorthand this, but it gives room for further discussion on the specifics. The following is a very rough basic guide so to say.

* E-Waste: There's common knowledge of PMG metal percentage in certain parts that gives you a pretty good rough idea. How much per ton, how much each parts weighs, etc. Over time you build a list that you're able to check when needed, and this will aid in the process. If you buy with the idea in mind of what PMG metals you'll be able to recover, and understand what it costs to recover them, then you'll have a pretty good idea of what to budget for on the purchase side.

*Karat scrap: Get a testing kit/scanner, keep a visual guide of what the markings/stampings on jewelry mean, get a jewelers loupe, have someone you trust that is knowledgeable in the field of jewelry, and can separate out what is worth more to resell than being melted down. Take your time, and keep your patience.

*Ore: Get a testing kit/scanner, keep a visual guide on what the stones/dirt should look like, study up on geology, and so on, and so on.

You will build a procedure for how you handle each one of these fields in whichever you pursue.

Avoiding the middleman.

There is usually always going to be a middleman in one form or another. The trick is figuring out how to utilize the middle man best, like what would be better to sell to the middle man instead of processing yourself.

Using E-waste as and example, rather than run low grade board yourself, it may be worth just selling that to the other guy. The cost to process, and the loss just by selling/outside refining, are really very close, and the difference is spent building a relationship with that contact, that could be used later down the line when you need to purchase stock or need advice/information, etc. .

 

[orvi]

Middleman cannot be obviated most of the times, as typically you do not have enough PMs to be interesting for major refineries or other bigger guys. So in this situation, you will need to walk directly to the middleman's arms and accept whatever robbery style prices he gave you on the PMs.

As time passes, I recognized that in most parts of the world, middleman ladders and networks does not function similarly to monopoly. Here it is pretty much like it. Not only with PGMs, but also with gold and silver. Very hard to find some guy to sell few ozt of gold (ingot, 999+) for more than 94%spot. Silver rarely over 80%. With PGMs, I cry everytime when I see that miserable 73% for Pd. I managed to get over 80 as time passed and i meet another guys, but generally if you do PGMs here, you are going to be ripped off pretty much anytime you sell whatever quantity you have ( similar pricing also for batches over half kilo..). And not to mention being ripped for eventual Rh content, as they pay there only for more than 15% in the melt, and even then less than 70%spot. Not talking about Ir - we still does not have buyer in our area for eventual melts with good Ir content. Simply, you does not get a buck for one of the rarest metals on Earth here.

You can step out of this cycle only when you have decent quantities and sell abroad. And that is another level of "hard" in terms of taxation, tolls, paperwork and stuff need to be done. Many times when you combine all of the taxes and duties, tolls and fees you will end up being as you will sell to the aforementioned middleman monopoly here.

This additional cost is then "melted" into the prices for buying raw scrap from local vendors, which arent willing to sell for such prices. We adapted and now do mostly toll refinig, for certain % of PMs present. And the agreed majority % is going into the hands of the owner.

We tried to produce some jewellery supply metals like sterling shot, bars, also 14k alloys as raw materials, but not much flow in this direction. As it wasn't plumbed, additional money for certification and stuff lead us to the beginning ... Cycle revolves again and again

 

[stoneware]

Someone has to pay to keep the lights on

 

[4metals]

I just noticed this thread and, although it is an older thread, I could not resist posting a response. The OP likely works for, or for all I know is the owner of, a manufacturer of refining equipment. (Proses-Makina.com. They are located in Turkey) If utilized properly, his presence here can benefit our members, as well as likely derive some business from our members.

That being said the OP hasn’t been here since April 2023, but this message for him is worth saying because, if he can be convinced of the value the active membership in this forum can bring to his company, it may benefit many of our members.

At first glance, it seems that the vast majority of our members are small, back yard refiners, and really not worth the attention of manufacturers who produce equipment for larger equipment for refining. But that is far from the truth. We do have a substantial population of members, who are mostly silent, that work for or own substantial sized refineries. And a lot more who would make the jump into becoming larger refiners if they knew what is available to them. I’m not saying becoming the next Metalor, or Johnson Matthey, but becoming what is considered in the industry a collector. A collector is someone who refines or semi- refines scrap before sending it off to the large refineries, and there exists a need for this type of collector today. This forum has helped many of these members by providing practical knowledge and debunking many of the potentially “brain dead” attempts that some members have proposed. All in all, we do give away, literally for free, a plethora of refining related information that is difficult to find elsewhere.

So how can Proses-Makina benefit from this relationship? First off, they could become a sponsor and post for all to see, their equipment offerings. While you could ask “why don’t they just go to our website?” and it is a fair question, but I can foresee members referencing your equipment, easily located here, as potential solutions for their particular application. There are threads here on the forum where members invested in refining equipment and were suffering large losses. We worked with these people on open forum and solved their issues, we did it for free and turned what was a losing proposition into a different scenario. (One particular thread had Makina equipment which was being used improperly.) Another thing that members don’t seem to realize is how much it will cost them to buy this equipment. One distributer of refining systems lists the latest pricing of equipment they have sold to give potential customers a base line for purchase price. Sure, the price can change but it gives them a starting point, and often it is reasonably priced to actually motivate them to inquire further.

In addition, the presence of a representative here on the forum could allow them to comment on threads to discuss the finer points of their equipment when it comes up.

I have found that most equipment sellers don’t properly support their customers after the sale aside from basic instructions from the start. That is where a participating rep, as well as our informed staff at GRF, can be valuable to your company.

This is just my 2¢ about what the forum can do for your company if you decide to play along. Please note that I am no longer a moderator, although I do come to read threads from time to time, so I do not, or did I or any moderator here ever benefit from the proceeds of any advertising. It is just in my opinion a sound marketing strategy.

 

[Gwar]

I recently sold all my silver bars to Midwest Refiners in Wateford, MI, Gary was very easy to deal with and my $4100.00 check arrived in less than a week, I sent just above 205ozt, they pay 90%, of course, all of my silver was .999 not scrap, the reasoning behind this was that it wasn't 'Recognized' silver ie; Ampex, Silvertowne etc; so internet sales were probably going to a hassle and a long drawn out process, in the future I plan to buy silver and just plunk it into the safe, refining / silver cell is still on my mind though..

 

[4metals]

10% for .999 fine Silver!!!! You can get paid that for sterling. Haven’t they heard of assaying at Midwest? Your bars don’t have to be struck recognized bars if they assay up to spec. That’s just another way to hose the little guy. You should be shopping for a new refiner.

 

[Shark]

4metals is dead on here I think. As stingy as I can be, buying a known product, with good support would be “the” way to move up in the industry. As a home refiner it would be good to make and use a small system that could be purchased in a larger scale as business grew. Or even being able to buy a ready made small scale system could save many home refiners the headache of trying to design and build a system themself. This way one could just scale up, and use a known component(s), saving much time, money and headaches.

 

[Gwar]

Well, I did sigma test before sending too, the Assay beared that out, a guy here on the forum was pretty much giving half, HALF of that and then charging a premium on the rounds or bars he was going to send..

 

[Lou]

4metals isn't dead on here. He's just busy, for Pete's sake. Happens to us all.

I agree with everything 4 metals said regarding sponsors. It would be great to have people making small affordable induction melters, refining equipment, fume control etc. sized for amateurs transitioning to professionals. I was once there myself and can vouch that this place saved me some heartache, gave me some business, and most importantly some perspective and a good swift kick to the teeth learning from people who knew a helluva lot more than I thought I did!

I will reach out to the Italians at Italimpianti and see if they ever wanted to go grass roots. Likely against their business model, but perhaps all established equipment suppliers should look at cultivating future large users.


@Gwar, Insofar as 90% for 3N silver like that...hell, i'd have driven up and got it from you for me myself and as I like silver. Hopefully he paid you on the scale weight X 999 X 90% cash money!

As Midwest Refiners was brought up I have a little anecdote: Gary actually got me into refining when I sent some pure platinum (melted from lab crucibles made by JM) to him, was told it was only 80% pure and the rest was iridium and that he had already melted it with other scrap and either accept the less-than-advertised money because of the (nonexistent) iridium or find a kite and some rain. Well that sure made me mad, but I needed the money and more importantly in hindsight, the lesson. Went and started studying chemistry a bit harder, went to school, so on and so forth, started a business, etc. That was like 20 years ago, so I'm sure Gary is probably fabulously rich by now and perhaps operates differently. Interestingly enough, I was asked if I was interested in buying his PGMs years back, so I got the opportunity to politely recuse myself. He didn't remember me

 

[kurtak]

4metals is dead on here I think.

4metals isn't dead on here. He's just busy, for Pete's sake. Happens to us all.

Lou I don't think Shark was meaning to say that 4metals was dead here on the forum --- rather he meant that 4metals was "right on" with what he (4metals) posted

I was once there myself and can vouch that this place saved me some heartache, gave me some business, and most importantly some perspective and a good swift kick to the teeth learning from people who knew a helluva lot more than I thought I did!

In deed - had it not been for this forum I would have NEVER been able to go from a back yard hobby refiner to spending 10 years making a fair/comfortable living refining (plus a small but fair stash of metals I still hold)

That being said the OP hasn’t been here since April 2023, but this message for him is worth saying because, if he can be convinced of the value the active membership in this forum can bring to his company, it may benefit many of our members.

At first glance, it seems that the vast majority of our members are small, back yard refiners, and really not worth the attention of manufacturers who produce equipment for larger equipment for refining. But that is far from the truth. We do have a substantial population of members, who are mostly silent, that work for or own substantial sized refineries. And a lot more who would make the jump into becoming larger refiners if they knew what is available to them

It would be great to have people making small affordable induction melters, refining equipment, fume control etc. sized for amateurs transitioning to professionals

Therefore I agree with both you & 4metals on this

As Midwest Refiners was brought up I have a little anecdote: Gary actually got me into refining when I sent some pure platinum (melted from lab crucibles made by JM) to him, was told it was only 80% pure and the rest was iridium and that he had already melted it with other scrap and either accept the less-than-advertised money because of the (nonexistent) iridium or find a kite and some rain. Well that sure made me mad,

I don't really mean to laugh but Midwest was one of the first refineries I talked to when I was just starting out - buy the end of the phone call I knew it was my last call

Kurt

 

[Shark]

4metals isn't dead on here. He's just busy, for Pete's sake. Happens to us all.

Lou I don't think Shark was meaning to say that 4metals was dead here on the forum --- rather he meant that 4metals was "right on" with what he (4metals) posted

Maybe I should have worded it a bit different, but Kurt is right, I 100% agree with 4metals. I know he has been busy with other things and can respect that.

 

[Lou]

I'm running low on sleep. New born in the house and some other (sad) stuff going on so patience/reading skills are impaired. Y'all have been warned!

 

[Yggdrasil]

I'm running low on sleep. New born in the house and some other (sad) stuff going on so patience/reading skills are impaired. Y'all have been warned!

I hope the joy of the newborn will overshadow the sad stuff.
Enjoy, it is an exhausting yet rewarding time of ones life.

 

[4metals]

Good advice! Experience is a good thing.

The good will out-shadow the bad for sure but it often takes time to realize that for sure. My oldest will be 44 next week and, all in all, the good greatly exceeded the bad.

 

[Shark]

Wait until the great grand kids start coming in… then you can just spoil them and send them home ….., kind of like I did the grand kids but in larger volumes…..

 

[orvi]

From the buyers which can be found listed online, and also my connections, I was able to found the beast deal for my 3N5 silver... 85-88% spot. Yeah. That´s it.
Better was only silver nitrate. I had some quantity of p.a. silver nitrate, around 99,9% metal basis pure, tested, good like brand new stuff from Sigma. 80% spot for the metal content. For chemical that is going well over spot, and only need to be poured to the brand bottle with new sticker and you can cash the profit.
I want to cry sometimes, why our country must be still so lacking behind, and just being stronghold for fake middlemans ripping practices. And we are considered developed country in the middle of the EU.

 

[billgold]

In the USA, buying/selling sterling, coin and fine silver has been outrageous. For nationally minted junk coins with only moderate wear, I have seen the dealers paying 19x face or higher. For sterling, spot plus $2 -$3. Fine silver national mint coins are around spot plus $4 - $6.

The premiums if you want to buy 999 silver ounce national rounds can be well in excess of $35/oz.

The premiums recently seem to be coming down a bit.

 

[AGMETALS]

I can suggest to view a short Whiteboard animation giving a great tip for
recyclers of precious metals, use my 30 years of experiance
agmetals.com/refining-gold-great-tip-video

Edited by moderator, deleted link since it may be against forum rules.
Link address remains

 

[Yggdrasil]

I can suggest to view a short Whiteboard animation giving a great tip for
recyclers of precious metals, use my 30 years of experiance
agmetals.com/refining-gold-great-tip-video

Edited by moderator, deleted link since it may be against forum rules.
Link address remains

Welcome to us.
It is nice to get someone with experience from trading here, but we mainly focus on recovery and refining.
So if you want to learn these skills you have come to the right place.

Please read the forum rules and try to heed them.
https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/gold-refining-forum-rules.31182/