Rhodium Tests.

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I don't have any beads on hand, but I do have some honeycomb. I could run a quick test for the forum and let you guys know if it works.

I have some beads coming next week.

I'll try diluted and concentrated acid to see which works, if either.

Steve
 
steve,

that is about all i can do too, just use some busted up honeycomb which it appeared that the comb that was show on the history channel modern marvels was pulverized of some way.....

what little i know about the auto cats is they have hydrocarbon residue on them, in sulfide form [ergo the rotten egg smell you get behind a car once in awhile] will sulfuric attack through the sulfide?

if indeed it takes care of the alumina will then the sulfide residue be left in the metals? [only having high school chemistry under me has its drawbacks, I can remember certain things about sulfur precipitates, but we only went so far] In the action mining catalog they make reference that if your ore [and this constitutes an ore of type] has sulfides you need some different chemicals added to your leach mix [for their leach process which is around $8000.00 to purchase and of course is outside my budget at this time in history.... and i probably could build the unit if i thought about it and wanted to run 150 pounds of cats every few days..... which sounds like harder work while in the learning curve, but ive been wrong before]

as far as type of cats go, i believe that they are all the same strucure and composition, some are larger and some newer ones [2005 and newer] have a little more precious metals inside them, though I am still not clear on the quantity increase but under stand it may be a couple grams of Pt at the least. So the ones from refinerys will have more in them and probably cost more to get aholt of [not knowing anyone in the oil refinery business is a drawback] the ones from woodstoves in parts of the several states that require such will have PGM's as well and are bigger than auto cats and probably wont have the sulfide problem that autos do....if it is a problem.

thanks guys, you all have brought me back to where i jumped into this forum several months ago, but I am armed with greater knowledge by far than what i would have had on my own..... and a few folks i consider as friends, if only in a forum of electrons on a screen, you all are awesome mentors.

William
 
All,
I boiled a sample of honeycomb material in sulfuric acid (1.64 spgr = 74%) for 30 minutes. The acid darkened , but did not test positive for any precious metals. I suspect the darkening was from the carbon residues on the honeycomb as I did not incinerate the sample first.

I then treated the washed sample with boiling AR. The material fizzed with bubbles as typical with AR reactions and turned ever so slightly yellow but did not test positive for PGMs.

The sample I tested was very small and this may account for the unsuccessful results.

Given an average total honeycomb mass of 2.273 kg (5 lbs) and estimated PGM content of 2 grams the overall concentration of PGMs is:

2 gm / 2273 gm = 0.0009 PGM concentration ratio

If the PGM content were 4 grams per converter the concentration ratio for an entire converter would be 0.0018.

These concentrations are very low and hence small samples may not yield measurable results without sophisticate test equipment.

From this experiment I can conclude that even if extraction from small samples was possible for the home refiner, the yields are so low as to be immeasurable. To achieve a measurable sample from a 2 gram per cat honeycomb, you need to process a minimum sample size of 285 gm to yield 0.2565 gm of PGMs.

This all tells me to achieve success on a scale and be cost effective you need to process large quantities of cats. The matter is complicated further by the excessive size of the material compared to the amount of acid required to digest the PGMs. Large scale reactions require larger labware, and the requirement of heating large volumes adds more complexity. Here's a photo of a 10 pound bag of honeycomb material:

honeycomb_10lb.jpg


Digestion of the substrate seems to be the logical method of achieving success, but digesting the substrate is indeed a problem. Direct AR attack of the metals would be very costly due to the larger volume of the substrate.

I'll post more when my beads arrive.

Steve
 
Steve

in the 30 minutes of boiling in sulfuric, did the substrate dissolve and or burn away? That is what i believe the bit on Modern Marvels revealed, the use of sulfuric was to eat/dissolve the substrate first, they did not say how long, such was in a vat, if they churned it, or if heat was added.....

It may be we will have to fire the substrate first to remove any hydrocarbon residues..... according to the first information i "bought" that would be an hour at 1100 degrees stirring wile it is "cooking/baking" I got the parts for a flowerpot heat container for using charcoal and a blower to bring the temp up that high or higher. In another thread here there was discussion of a professor who passed away and he burnt his concentrates from panning for gold on a chunk of sheet metal over an open fire [ok he was in central america where the EPA and snooty neighbors probably dont exist in the manner they do elsewhere] but the result is the same heat eats away the sulfides as when the rotten egg smell is gone the "ore" is ready for acids. the information is stored at http://www.prospectorsparadise.com/html/basement.html under the telluride section....

William
 
William,

The substrate tested measured 1.00 gram +/- .05 gram before the digestion experiment.

The dried substrate after the experiment weighs 1.00 gram +/- .05 gram.

Either I need to use full strength 98% H2SO4 or sulfuric acid won't dissolve this substrate. I suspect the latter.

Hopefully I get better results using the beads.

Lastly, my scales are not accurate enough to determine if this very small sample actually changed weight by 0.09 - 0.18%. In the near future I will perform a larger scale experiment and include incineration and full strength 98% concentrated H2SO4. I will weigh the dried substrate after each stage of processing to determine if the substrate is being cleaned, leeched, or dissolved.

Steve
 
lazersteve said:
.....
Lastly, my scales are not accurate enough to determine if this very small sample actually changed weight by 0.09 - 0.18%. ......
Steve

I hear ya on the measurement my scale is in no way able to tell on such a small amount either..... in fact i can only measure to a tenth of a gram so I figure I wil have problems weighing anything out to specific gravity until I am able to upgrade to a better device...... I have of course my powder scale for reloading but it is so small and would be hard to use for this purpose...

Thanks for the attempt..... the information is valuable.

William
 
Steve,
I have to presume at this point that you are referring to fusion with sodium bisulfate.
I did not even know that a rhodium mineral would fuse with sodium bisulfate.

I was taught to fuse any mineral suspected of having rhodium or any powder or metal suspected of being rhodium should be fuse with potassium sulfate, which is a much more powerful oxidizer, so that is what I do.

After dissolving the completed fusion in water and filtering to a clear solution, then a small amount of ethyl alcohol is added, which reduces only the rhodium as it's metal out of the solution as a fine black powder. It works for me. :D
 
blueduck said:
I saved the image and my viewer blew it up even better than my browser did.....

So if nothing is appreciable to corrode Rh how can one test for it?

I was watching the history channel the other day and wathed the folks in Kalifornia use Sulfuric on the alumina in cats to eat it all away before goong after the plat group..... their vat after it had been disolved and AR added was a really pretty yellow even on the tube..... they said a 400 pound barrel of cat alumina valued out at about $24,000.00 give or take when it was recorded Pt was at $1200.... so it give me some idea of what was in a cat to a degree, what they did not get into was the total process.... the show was on acids on modern marvels

http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=106420

a person can buy it for $25, the segment did not last more than a few minutes.... but the whole show was worth watching as they had a chemist on there showing disintegration of a hotdog and a chicken bone in muriatic which he showed at about 9 hours as being gone...... so a fella dont want to fall into a vat of it eh?..... showed elector polishing stainless steel using acid a too and talked about that company cleaning the acid and reusing it by adding another chemical.... the program is worth catching again and might even be worth purchasing for safety lessons for some folks.

William



I wouldn't want to test anyone's moral character here. I just wanted to mention for those interested though, that I noticed the Modern Marvels episode about acids is available out on BitTorrent.

http://www.bt-chat.com/download.php?id=20008

macfixer01
 
with areas polluted by backyard metal recovery oprations.

There was an outfit down the street that used to salvage electronic scrap on a big scale and ship it to China for reprocessing but they can't export it anymore because of all of the environmental devastation caused by people who didn't know what they were doing, polluting by dumping spent solutions improperly.
I have a feeling that this is going to overtake Meth labs in illegal polution.
 
Irons said:
I have a feeling that this is going to overtake Meth labs in illegal polution

Let's hope all of our members will be responsible with the disposal of their reaction by products.

Steve
 
lazersteve said:
Irons said:
I have a feeling that this is going to overtake Meth labs in illegal polution

Let's hope all of our members will be responsible with the disposal of their reaction by products.

Steve

I'm not so worried about the people on this forum. There is plenty of safety information here to make most people think things through before they proceed.
What worries me is the yahoo that watches the video once and knows it all, with the resulting mess and improper disposal.

One thing to note as well is that PGMs are pretty inert in massive metallic form but become very poisonous compounds when put in solution.

This is very serious business. Mistakes can be costly in many ways.
 
I think the most important thing is to treat and handle the waste chemicals legally and properly. There should be many more threads concerning this subject.

I once heard a real horror story about one of the osmium compounds - some form of osmium chloride, I think. It evaporates at room temperature and the fumes can deposit a metallic osmium coating on the lens of your eye. Scary.
 
goldsilverpro said:
I think the most important thing is to treat and handle the waste chemicals legally and properly. There should be many more threads concerning this subject.

I once heard a real horror story about one of the osmium compounds - some form of osmium chloride, I think. It evaporates at room temperature and the fumes can deposit a metallic osmium coating on the lens of your eye. Scary.

That's one I worry about too. Some Native PGMs contain a couple percent Osmium. It can really ruin your day if you try to smelt it without adequate protection and collection.

It doesn't do any good to make a few bucks and ruin the value of your property in the process.
Cleanups can be very expensive, costing in the Millions and the environmental boys will hand you the bill.
 
At last count, there are 5 refineries that I worked for that eventually became EPA SuperFund sites. This was in the '60's, '70's, and early '80's. Everyone dumped everything down the drain back then. No good. There are other ways to do it.
 
goldsilverpro said:
At last count, there are 5 refineries that I worked for that eventually became EPA SuperFund sites. This was in the '60's, '70's, and early '80's. Everyone dumped everything down the drain back then. No good. There are other ways to do it.

With the value of Gold and PGM's these days, it's also very profitable to recover everything.

The main problem is dealing with heavy base metals and finding a market. With natural sources of even base metals becoming depleted, recovery is going to be an important resource in the future.

The ideal operation is where inexpensive and benign reagents are used and all effluent and water is recycled in a closed loop. It's expensive to set up but really the only way to go to do it properly.
 
The standard methods of refining are generally polluting and people spend tons of money in equipment to handle the pollution. I've always felt the best way would be to develop new non-polluting methods. For example, there are companies, especially in California, that are using purely mechanical methods with no chemicals. The recovery technology in Europe is light years ahead of that in the US.

Where are you in Maine? I spent 3 years near Caribou in the Air Force. Really loved it up there. Would like to return some day.
 
goldsilverpro said:
The standard methods of refining are generally polluting and people spend tons of money in equipment to handle the pollution. I've always felt the best way would be to develop new non-polluting methods. For example, there are companies, especially in California, that are using purely mechanical methods with no chemicals. The recovery technology in Europe is light years ahead of that in the US.

Where are you in Maine? I spent 3 years near Caribou in the Air Force. Really loved it up there. Would like to return some day.

I live near Acadia National Park.

Back in the 1880's there was a big mining boom in this area. The people who made money were the ones who initially sold the stock in the ventures. I have a bunch of old maps from the perod showing where all the "Gold" and "Silver" mines were.

There is Gold and Silver but the land is worth much more for residential development.
 
goldsilverpro said:
I notice that Rhenium (Re) is listed as a Pt Gp metal. Some list it and some don't. Since Platinum Metals Review is the definitive Pt Gp publication, I guess Re should be included.

I would say rhenium should be classified a precious metal with this article;
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUKL2586811220070925?rpc=44&sp=true

http://www.commodityonline.com/news/topstory/newsdetails.php?id=2993


I guess the only scrap source of rhenium would be from the aerospace
industry?
 
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