Silver from xray flim

Gold Refining Forum

Help Support Gold Refining Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
All,

Just an update on silver recovery from x-ray films using the methods described in this thread. Once it cleared the films out and you can see a blue color film, silver is a silvery deposit at the bottom of beaker. I have tried 2 films so far, one weighed 18.74 grams, and I could get 0.20 grams of silver from it, I am going to come up with surface area / gram silver ratio for each films.

Juan,
Once the silver is at the bottom of beaker, if i decant some of the particles goes back to the top of surface and would go to the bucket, do you suggest filtering the silver powder? Doesn't it get stock to the filter paper?

Regards,
Kevin
 
gunhawrtis said:
Any one knows how to recover silver from film using hydrogen peroxide method?
Hi gunhawartis, there are standard methods that are simple and less chemicals to add while processing , when it comes to recover silver from x-ray scrap ,
you can make comfortable with these basic methods , i think peroxide (if there is process using) is not financially much cheaper than Naoh or oxallic chemicals .

Thanks
Sena
 
All,

Here is another update on 2 more films.

Film 1, weighed 28.09 grams, dimensions 29 x 39 cm dry silver powder prior to melting 0.32 grams
Film 2, weighed 17.26 grams, dimensions 29 x 23 cm dry silver powder prior to melting 0.39 grams

So based on this calculation it seems average percentage for silver is %1.56 by mass. I got a hold of 12.5 kg of x-ray films, which I am going to process 1 kg of it. will post result.

I have tried oxalic acid methods on MRI type films, and nothing happened.Do they process different?

Regards,
Kevin
 
Many (but, not all) MRIs and catscans are done on Dryview or other "Dry" type film. Also, they use it for "regular" x-rays. To strip this, we used 4% caustic soda at 200F and tumbled it chopped up for an hour. Even then, a special proprietary additive, that I can't divulge, was required to get 100% of the black silver layer off of the PET plastic. I don't think that oxalic acid will touch it. Check some of the older posts by Manuel. I think he mentioned that a certain solution containing some alcohol would strip it. A big problem is that, when you get a container of film these days, it is usually a mixture of common "wet" halide rare earth film and "dry" film. When developed, these 2 types look identical (almost) and are almost impossible to sort. We did have a couple of guys that could sort it (fairly well), but they had been doing it for years. I can't sort it without checking each sheet with a cigarette lighter. I've detailed that method several times on the forum.

Since each sheet of film is different, it is a worthless exercise to base film values on running one or two sheets - an average of what to expect on various type film is the only important thing. The only exception to this is the "dry" type film. Since no silver is removed during developing, each sheet of the same size will yield exactly the same, whether developed or undeveloped, assuming it is of the same type and by the same manufacturer.

Your yields show a value of 1.56% or, .227 tr.oz. of silver/pound of film. Totally impossible unless the film is (1) of an earlier variety at least 27 years old, (2) the film was custom made (extremely unlikely), (3) it was industrial x-ray and not medical x-ray film, (4) it was 4 mil litho film, which actually looks totally different than x-ray film, or (5) Production screwed up on a batch and put on too much silver and this somehow got past QC. On this link, the included chart is based on the processing yields (and my approx. 6000 assays) of about 50 million pounds of all types of film scrap from all over the US. This chart is DEAD ON and, if you're wise, you'll accept these numbers as gospel. If you use your own figures, you'll quickly go broke.
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=3735&p=50819hilit=rare+earth+litho#p50819

Also, check this earlier thread.
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=7361&hilit=litho+chart+dryview

How do I know your numbers are way too high? If this were undeveloped (green) rare earth film, 100% of the silver would still be on it and the highest value I've ever seen is .20 oz/# (1.37%) and the average is about .18 (.123%). If it's developed rare earth film, which it probably is, the worst I've seen are chest shots, which can run as low as .065 oz/# (.45%). The best I've ever seen ran .14 oz/# (.96%) and I'm thinking that was from Sri Lanka. On average, day in and day out, it will run .10 oz/# (.69%).

I have no idea how you got such big numbers but I would guess that if you were to borax melt those powders (if they will melt) and weigh the beads, it would bring things back to reality.

Please don't take offense on what I've written, kjavanb123. I just don't want others to think this stuff is worth more than it actually is and lose money on it.
 
All this talk about film has really got me to wanting to run some. I've never attempted it. Chris, i have about 200-300 lbs of this film that someone dropped on me awhile back for nothing. Can you tell what this stuff is? It's sort of light green and doesn't apper to have ever been used. I would like to get around to learning a little something new. :mrgreen:
 

Attachments

  • 120715_222.jpg
    120715_222.jpg
    326.4 KB · Views: 472
  • 120715_223.jpg
    120715_223.jpg
    345.8 KB · Views: 472
GoldSilverPro,

Thanks for your detailed response. I have read your post on films yields, but the data I posted is black/gray precipitant dry weight after oxalic leach of 2 films. I melted 0.350 grams of it and produced a silver button which is pure silver color, the rest of it melted but got stuck to the crusible, so I am not able to confirm the weight of silver metal from black powder.
I am processing 1-kg batch of x-ray films, hope that produces enough silver powder that can be melted and will post result of before and after weight.

Also, wondering how do clean the films prior the leaching?

Regards,
Kevin
 
Ralph,

Sounds and looks like undeveloped (green) rare earth film. Sort of a light lime green? If so, the silver is on there as silver halides (AgBr, AgCl). It should strip quite well in about a 8-10%, 130F, sodium hydroxide solution. This will convert the silver halides to silver oxide. Strip - settle - siphon - filter - rinse well - incinerate to white ash (stinks bad) - blend ash with borax (about 50% of the ash weight) and soda ash (about 15% of ash weight) - crucible melt - pour bar - remove slag - remelt - remove slag with warm carbon rod or rebar - pour pure clean bar. Developed rare earth film or litho film uses the exact same process.

In bulk, you almost have to chop or shred the film before stripping. If not, you run one sheet at a time or several, if you can keep them separated in the solution. If you try to run multiple sheets, they will stick together and the solution won't fully get between them

When exposed to bright light, the green film will sometimes change colors to pinkish/purplish, which causes no problems when using NaOH.

When fully stripped, you'll have a sheet of blue (usually) clear plastic.

You can also strip green film with thiosulfate fixer but you then have to get the silver out of the solution. The best way is electrolytic with a special SS rotating drum cathode. I think some posts have been made for chemical methods, none of which I remember liking that much. One good thing about thiosulfate is that, unlike the NaOH, it only strips the silver halides and not the emulsion.
 
Ralph,

If it is undeveloped rare earth, it will run about .18 - .20 oz/#. About $5 - $5.50/#.

The reason I keep saying "if" is because the colors in the photos look off. However, I can't think of anything else it could possibly be. Litho doesn't have rounded corners and undeveloped dryview looks like a clear sheet of blue plastic.

EDIT: Maybe you lucked out and got some undeveloped industrial x-ray film, which can run as high as .65 oz/# - $17/#. However, the Ag on that is so thick that I doubt if you can see through it as well as in your first photo. The color problem could be in your camera work. If you could just photo a few sheets spread out on a table in natural light, I might be able to tell better.
 
Juan Manuel Arcos Frank said:
GSP,My Dear Friend:

You have such a nice memory!!!!!!,Yes,Sir,I said that about processing DryView films,alcohol makes emulsion easier to fall out,I think that emulsion in DryView films is different from emulsion in silver halide films,DryView films are developed by heat.

Ethyl alcohol(cheaper than isopropyl or methanol) could be used with good results,the process consists in dipping the films in a hot(60 C) solution of caustic soda,then add some ethyl alcohol and shake a little bit,the emulsion(with silver behenate) falls down nicely,pour off the solution,filter the solid and process it with the known methods.No one danger observed.DryView films contain very little silver.

Somewhere in my computer I have the process,step by step,I promise to post it ASAP.

Chris,behave yourself.Have a nice day.

Your friend:

Manuel


Hola Manuel,

I was wondering if the same ethyl alcohol can be used with behenate films, I am using your oxalic acid leach method, and nothing happens to the films.

Thanks in advance
Kevin
 
goldsilverpro said:
Also, wondering how do clean the films prior the leaching?

I don't understand, Kevin. Are they dirty?

coming from scrap yard some of them had dirt on them, so I washed it off with hot water.


Ok here are some pictures from my silver recovery from films.

Since i haven't set up my stainless steel container yet, I cut a big film into smaller parts to hang them from a chop stick, separated by 1 cm from each other, that way they are just hung inside the beaker containing oxalic acid solution. I used 30 grams of oxalate to 600ml of water.

Since it wasn't completely submerged into the beaker part of the films still contained some silver.
films after recovery some silver still left on them.jpg

Side view of the same setup
x-ray films set up.jpg

Films inside the 95c oxalic acid solution



regards,
Kevin
 

Attachments

  • x-ray films in oxalic acid leach at 95c.jpg
    x-ray films in oxalic acid leach at 95c.jpg
    68.7 KB · Views: 399
kjavanb123 said:
Juan Manuel Arcos Frank said:
GSP,My Dear Friend:

You have such a nice memory!!!!!!,Yes,Sir,I said that about processing DryView films,alcohol makes emulsion easier to fall out,I think that emulsion in DryView films is different from emulsion in silver halide films,DryView films are developed by heat.

Ethyl alcohol(cheaper than isopropyl or methanol) could be used with good results,the process consists in dipping the films in a hot(60 C) solution of caustic soda,then add some ethyl alcohol and shake a little bit,the emulsion(with silver behenate) falls down nicely,pour off the solution,filter the solid and process it with the known methods.No one danger observed.DryView films contain very little silver.

Somewhere in my computer I have the process,step by step,I promise to post it ASAP.

Chris,behave yourself.Have a nice day.

Your friend:

Manuel


Hola Manuel,

I was wondering if the same ethyl alcohol can be used with behenate films, I am using your oxalic acid leach method, and nothing happens to the films.

Thanks in advance
Kevin

Kevin,

Silver Behanate film. Dryview film. Same thing.
 
goldsilverpro,

I am curios why is this? film that is cut into smaller pieces are dipped into acid solution, as you can see from pictures, some of the pieces are completely cleared from silver but part of other ones are not clear completely. Any ideas?

Thanks
Kevin
 
With oxalic acid, Manuel is the expert. I've never used it. Agitation would probably help.

I'm confused. Are those small pieces rare earth film or are they Dryview?

To determine whether the film is Dryview. Hold a cigarette lighter flame under a clear (clear blue - non-black) area - it only takes a second or two. If the heated spot turns black, it is Dryview. Note that any film will turn black (burn) if you hold it long enough. Keep it brief. Another way (according to Manuel) is to put a small piece in bleach. If it doesn't strip, it's Dryview.
 
goldsilverpro

I tested the films using the method you described, and except one all of them didn't change color per pointing a flame on to them on the blue area. So I assume all of the films are halide types. However, I am still confused why some of the films are partially cleared from the gray stuff. I will try to remove them using the lye method also addition of ethyl alcohol to oxalic acid leach, will post results.

Regards,
Kevin
 
I found some markings on the box number wise and found out what it is AGFA 10X12 Radiomat M Plus-Half Speed Blue Sensitive Fine Grain X-Ray Film
But all i can find really is sales info.
 
Back
Top