Smelting Problem

[4metals]

Getting the values out of this material when you are working with a #4 crucible size is quite a daunting task. Plus whomever sent you this stuff obviously thought they hit a mother load or they wouldn't have tried to melt the whole lot to begin with. Now you have an un-assayable mess and even with the best intentions and utmost honesty on your part Geo, your yield may not approach the customers expectations.

Having years of refining experience under my belt, I know it is sometimes difficult to live up to a customer's expectation. As refiners we understand you can only pay out on what comes out and what it cost you to get it out. As customers, the thought process goes something like ..... yeah but I thought.......!

Get a decent sample,(this may be easier said than done!) try to get it molten and in a form that can be poured and assayed, and then have a chat with the customer.

 

[Geo]

I did get a reply to my query. The only flux used was borax.

 

[Geo]

The material came from the Norfolk Naval base so I am assuming it is something good locked inside.

I am amazed he got the stuff off the base Geo, Norfork used to be a closed base back in it's day. :lol: How many pounds do you have, if you don't mind telling :?: Most military stuff is good material. Congrats Geo on the find. I hope you get the goodies out.

Ken

He brought a small bucket all the way from Maine with roughly forty pounds in it. He also brought a few reels of military grade silver plated wire which weighed almost a hundred pounds. He says he has several thousand pounds of the wire. It's coated with Teflon and will be a major pain to incinerate. It will have to be stripped. I did a rough sample and it seems to be around 3% silver by weight. This wire looks like good material for a copper parting cell.

 

[scrapman1077]

The Teflon strips easily .

 

[Shark]

Geo
This wire looks like good material for a copper parting cell.

It does sound good at 3% silver. If you go this route keep us informed. I am still working slowly prepping various sources of copper for use as a collector material for a cell.

 

[torscot]

Geo,

Going back to your original mess. Here is an idea. I process a lot of low grade plated scrap, some gold ores, and some silver ores. Cyanide. You say you have a ball mill. Put your mess in, keep grinding, every once in a while, classify your material, removing everything that has been ground to 200 mesh, anything bigger, throw it back in add more and keep grinding. You can buy classifier trays on Ebay, in the mining section. Once everything has been reduced to that fineness, treat it with cyanide. That you cannot buy that on Ebay though.

I cannot find the link to the process I use for scrap metal, it`s on this forum. I have it printed and it is in my workshop, not here at home. It`s quick and effective. I will find it and post it if you think it is of interest to you.

I found it. http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=24567&hilit=Cyanide

Food for thought. Why smelt all that mess when you can crush it, and extract the values another way. Treat it like low grade ore. Just thinking outside of the box.

Rob.

 

[Geo]

Thank you torscot. Everything I deal with is pretty toxic stuff and I don't kid myself in the least that I am slowly killing myself every day I work with it. Ever time I make a mistake, I expose myself to either dangerous fumes or toxic metals. I just can't see myself working with something that one mistake will be the last mistake I ever make. I deal with acids. Acids are just about everywhere I work at any time. There is no place I can safely work with a chemical that will kill you when mixed with acid. I would have to scrape the area clean and start with fresh new equipment before I would feel confident enough to work with cyanide. I am just not tidy enough. I am the first to admit that.

 

[autumnwillow]

Watchout for teflon flu. Either you remove that teflon by hand before applying any heat to it or [stt]you digest the entire thing in nitric.[/stt]

Edit to add: A copper cell will be much better assuming the base metal is copper, you can omit removing the teflon in the copper cell as long as you have a rotary cell. Teflon is resistant to chemicals.

 

[Geo]

I have a hand made wire stripper that works pretty well. The reels are easy to work with because you can work with one long unbroken piece. A jumbled mess would require more work cutting and starting a new strip very often.

 

[kurtak]

Kurt has advised me to mill a reasonable sample and see if the flux is soluble in hot water.

And quote by 4metals ---------

It seems that, when it comes to fluxing, most use the adage "when in doubt add borax". So Kurt's suggestion, while not something a commercial refiner might do, is very good.

The reason I suggested this (talked with Geo on the Phone) is because when you look at the pics you can see the material was not pyrolized/incinerated in the first place because I am seeing stuff like pieces of green board, copper wire with the insulation still on it, epoxy chips that are still "epoxy" chips & other colored plastic components

So the first thing I am seeing is that the material needs to be liberated from the slag/flux it is currently encased in (by milling) so it can be properly incinerated - in its current sate the encasement of slag/flux is going to "hinder" proper incineration

Also - there is a lot of flat out "garbage" in the mix (based on our phone talk) so again liberating from the slag/flux will help in being able to remove at least a fair portion of the garbage

But - just liberating it from the slag/flux is not going to be enough because though it will allow for helping to remove a fair portion of the garbage --- if you don't remove/eliminate "as much as possible" of the slag flux - it is going to "hinder" the incineration step - hence suggesting try to dissolve away as much "as possible" the flux/slag --- other wise the slag/flux is going to hinder oxygen getting to it &/or gassing off of the organic volatiles --- it may not prevent incineration - but it will certainly hinder it

4metas also wrote -----------

Borax will dissolve in very hot water

True - if you are talking about 20 mule team borax - however - once the water in 20 mule team is driven off turning it to borax glass it becomes much less soluble in even hot water (example being borax glass stuck on buttons & bars)

That's where I was hoping the "original" failed attempt at smelting had used a combination of borax & soda ash - as the soda ash will help keep the slag water soluble (which is why I asked Geo if he knew the original flux composition) --- however - because the material was not incinerated in the first place (before attempting to smelt) the organics (plastics) may have gassed off enough of its own chemical composition to change the chemical composition of the borax (glass) to help make it more soluble - so its certainly worth trying to see if hot water will help to eliminate as much as possible of the current slag

Also - concerning the milling - because of the large chunks of the material - milling (in a cement mixer ball mill) may be a bit of a problem due to the balls not wanting to lift up & around in the mill to come "crashing down" on the material to get a "good crushing" effect --- so you may need to install a "lift bar" in the mill to help lift the balls higher so they can drop with force to better effect "crushing"

If you didn't scrap/throw out the mixing fins that came with the cement mixer - install "one" of them & see if that helps --- if you don't still have the mixing fins - you can drill & bolt in a piece of angle iron for a lift bar

I sure wish I lived closer to you Geo - because I would certainly let you use my big furnace which takes a #40 crucible --- with only a #4 crucible I am afraid all you are going to be able to do is some sample/testing to get an "idea" of if the material is worth further pursuing

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

He brought a small bucket all the way from Maine with roughly forty pounds in it. He also brought a few reels of military grade silver plated wire which weighed almost a hundred pounds.

This would be a perfect collector for smelting the rest of the "original failed smelt" --- provided we can work out getting that material to workable state within your means

Kurt

 

[nickvc]

He brought a small bucket all the way from Maine with roughly forty pounds in it. He also brought a few reels of military grade silver plated wire which weighed almost a hundred pounds.

This would be a perfect collector for smelting the rest of the "original failed smelt" --- provided we can work out getting that material to workable state within your means

Kurt

Now that shows real insight Kurt and I like the idea :G

 

[kurtak]

Geo

Any headway on this project ?

Kurt

 

[Geo]

Geo

Any headway on this project ?

Kurt

I had to take a break. I had a couple of doctors appointments on top of a horrible toothache. The good news out of it is my lung capacity has improved from 34% back in June to 58% a few days ago. I did hear back from the guy that brought the material. He said the only flux used was borax. Ill be back at it tomorrow milling what I can. If This tooth lets up and I can get to see the dentist, I may be able to work on it all week. If I can't see the dentist or it keeps throbbing, I may not be able to do much. I want to mill what will mill and boil the material in water for a couple of days. I may be able to remove some of the borax that way. If not, I will put it in a plastic bucket and heat it in 10% sulfuric acid. I am feeling more optimistic about it now.

 

[Platdigger]

You probably all ready know this but you might try some warm salt water on that tooth until you can get to see a dentist Geo.
Worked a couple a times for me.

 

[anachronism]

Hi Geo

With regards to your "original mess" Lou was absolutely bang on the money. It would probably take less time and expense to build yourself a rotary furnace than it will take to begin processing that mess in other ways.

Jon

 

[autumnwillow]

Hey Geo whats up with your lung capacity issue? I think you should also consider this a lot. Take extra precautions in everything you do. Your life is more worth it than your refining earnings.

 

[Geo]

Hey Geo whats up with your lung capacity issue? I think you should also consider this a lot. Take extra precautions in everything you do. Your life is more worth it than your refining earnings.

It's a rather long story. In 2010, I had a bad case of pneumonia. A CT scan revealed I had "multiple pulmonary nodules". I had been pretty sick for some time prior not being able to do much physically. After seeing a pulmonologist, he explained that I had what appeared to be hundreds of centimetrical pulmonary nodules meaning that none of them were larger than a centimeter in diameter. The 3D CT scan of my lungs looks like I have been shot in the chest with a shotgun. When it was first discovered, the notion that it was cancer was very plausible. My lung capacity was such that removing a portion for biopsy was extremely dangerous. The doctor contacted the local radiologist to see if he could get a biopsy with a small catheter. He said that all of the masses that were on the outside edges was too small. So the only way to get a sample was to go in and take out a small slice of lung tissue. Not having insurance at the time, a PET scan was out of the question. The doctor said that if we could establish that I had the nodules previously, we could almost rule out cancer. Three months after leaving the hospital and facing the prospect of dying from the same thing that killed my mother and worrying myself to the point of exhaustion, I was lying in bed trying to go to sleep and sat bolt upright. I remembered going to the Decatur General Hospital ER one night in 2005 because I couldn't breath good and the company nurse said my BP was too high. They did chest xrays and a CT scan. I was worried about my job and was in a rush to return to work. I got up from bed and called the contact number for my doctor. He called back about fifteen minutes later and told me that DGH had my records from that night and to meet him in his office the next morning. The hospital had destroyed the actual images but the ER doctors notes revealed "multiple pulmonary nodules". If they told me about it at the ER that night, I don't remember. Seems like that would be something that would be hard to forget. Anyway. it established that whatever it was, I had it five years previously. The doctor said he was 99.9% sure it was not lung cancer. He wanted me to go to cancer treatment centers of America anyway but I declined. In the four months from the pneumonia and finding the records from DGH, I had applied for and was granted my disability which included medicare and medicaid. Even though It was never proven exactly what it is, it was a safe bet to assume what it wasn't. It could be copper dust from my years cutting electric motors for a living. It could be bacterial or fungal from breathing air from a steel tank during all the years I made a living diving. It could be from the damage caused by making nitric acid from sulfuric acid and potassium nitrate for years when I was prospecting with my father. I have never smoked a cigarette in my life but everyone around me has, including my mother and my wife. My mother died of lung cancer in 1997. My wife has since quit smoking. She has been a lifetime smoker but only uses a vape now. My struggle with lung disease and trying to refine is well documented in all my post. A lung capacity of 58% is a huge improvement and I credit the use of a fume hood with that improvement.

 

[autumnwillow]

Ahh. My grandmother has interstitial lung disease, I think this is similar to what you have but you are very lucky since you are recovering from it. My grandmother isn't. I guess its because of her age at 83.

Back to the topic. What happened to the lot? I would bring it to someone who has a large furnace if I were you or better yet build a large furnace instead as this can be used for pyrolysis, incineration and smelting/melting.

 

[snoman701]

Any headway on this?

If you are still having trouble getting this milled, I'd consider freezing with liquid nitrogen and manually breaking it up smaller with a 2" piece of steel bar dropped in to a heavy walled cylinder such as a welding gas cylinder that has been cut off.

You need to make yourself a jaw crusher!

Short of that, I'd heat very small batches of it up to dull red, then dip in water to cool rapidly....lots of times, with super duper care of the resulting steam explosion that's going to happen. Following that, ball milling will reduce the glass to powder in no time.

Might also look for a couple of shotput balls to put in the mill.