Their is no generalizing. According to thermodynamics all engine designs are bad. Automobile engines are only about 25% efficient at energy conversion. Hummm... sort of the way my cell design might not be efficient but still seems to work considering it's a bad design.
Stainless Steel Silver Cell
- Thread starter kadriver
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amesametrita
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- Nov 16, 2011
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Palladium said:
Who said that they are ALL bad?
Just your generalization.
If nobody can push up efficiency doesn't mean they are all bad.
They do what can be achieved by present technology.
I don't say ALL silver cells are bad.
I just said that your particular design is the worst I've ever seen.
amesametrita,
I repeat myself. Will you explain how you would set up a small (say, 1 to 3 liter) cell. That's about the size that most of these guys would use.
I repeat myself. Will you explain how you would set up a small (say, 1 to 3 liter) cell. That's about the size that most of these guys would use.
amesametrita
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2011
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==By the way it's more professionally to measure cells by cathode area instead of litres.==
metatp
Well-known member
I finally understand where amesametrita is coming from. He has a different definition of what a good design is. My definition is one that works for the purpose it was intented for. It needs to be easy to use, easy to construct with readily available and inexpensive items (readily available and inexpensive for me as I define it). There is also a hazard risk that would be part of the equation as well.amesametrita said:
It appears that his design is relatively inadequate for me (but I really haven't seen his perfect design), because it does not meet my definition for a good design.
To each his own, I just like the product it produces either way.
Regards,
Tom
kadriver
Well-known member
Wow - this thread has really grown.
The cell is working perfectly and the crystals are about 1/2 inch (in some places) all around the inside of the bowl.
I am really pleased with this new design. I can see where the clean out will be a snap.
The crystals in the glass cells look different, but the speed has really increased.
I followed your directions as best I could Palladium, and I am getting similar results, thank you for the direction you have given.
But I have one question; what do you use to scrape the crystal off the bowl to harvest the silver?
I am thinking a flexible poly plastic spatula.
I am having a blast learning new stuff.
Pictures of the crystal to follow.
kadriver
The cell is working perfectly and the crystals are about 1/2 inch (in some places) all around the inside of the bowl.
I am really pleased with this new design. I can see where the clean out will be a snap.
The crystals in the glass cells look different, but the speed has really increased.
I followed your directions as best I could Palladium, and I am getting similar results, thank you for the direction you have given.
But I have one question; what do you use to scrape the crystal off the bowl to harvest the silver?
I am thinking a flexible poly plastic spatula.
I am having a blast learning new stuff.
Pictures of the crystal to follow.
kadriver
You can use a flexible spatula if you want but until the copper starts to build the crystal are hard to dislodge with something flexible. I use a stainless steel spoon with strainer holes in the bottom, a serving spoon i guess it's called. That way you can just dip the crystals out without removing the solution and get right back to running. You will probably say what about scratches from the spoon? It doesn't matter. The crystals that might adhere to the surface because of scratches can just be left for the crystals to build on next time. If it really needs to be completely cleaned out you can just use nitric to remove the rough stuff in the scratches.
element47.5
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- May 10, 2012
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- 295
So, with 1/2" +/- of Ag crystals on the bowl, has the voltage or current changed? Or, have you just settled on a volts/amp combo that seems like it's working OK?
I will be interested in hearing how much effort it is to harvest the crystals.
I will be interested in hearing how much effort it is to harvest the crystals.
kadriver
Well-known member
Here is a shot of the crystal growth in the cell.
The growth around the rim of the bowl seems to be greater than that in the bottom of the bowl (because the cathode connections are around the rim).
I had the voltage set at 3.4 to 3.6 volts for a few hours with the amps up to around 2.0, but then I brought it back down to 3.1 volts DC and the amps settled in at 1.4 to 1.6 amps.
I have been running it for the past 4 days at 3.1 volts and 1.5 amps.
It looks like a bowl full of diamonds under sea water.
I have learned more things about operating the silver cell and I would recommend running this configuration to anyone.
kadriver
The growth around the rim of the bowl seems to be greater than that in the bottom of the bowl (because the cathode connections are around the rim).
I had the voltage set at 3.4 to 3.6 volts for a few hours with the amps up to around 2.0, but then I brought it back down to 3.1 volts DC and the amps settled in at 1.4 to 1.6 amps.
I have been running it for the past 4 days at 3.1 volts and 1.5 amps.
It looks like a bowl full of diamonds under sea water.
I have learned more things about operating the silver cell and I would recommend running this configuration to anyone.
kadriver
kadriver
Well-known member
Palladium,
I used a bamboo skewer to scrap a small patch away from the bowl just to see how the crystals would come off.
The place I scraped was completely bare of crystals and they just slid down into the bottom of the bowl.
The bowl I used had a very smooth surface, almost polished looking.
I may just use the bamboo to scrape the crystals, unless they adhere more tightly after they get bigger.
I've got another group of 2 troy ounce anode bars to run through the cell, 15 each.
I am loving the new design.
kadriver
I used a bamboo skewer to scrap a small patch away from the bowl just to see how the crystals would come off.
The place I scraped was completely bare of crystals and they just slid down into the bottom of the bowl.
The bowl I used had a very smooth surface, almost polished looking.
I may just use the bamboo to scrape the crystals, unless they adhere more tightly after they get bigger.
I've got another group of 2 troy ounce anode bars to run through the cell, 15 each.
I am loving the new design.
kadriver
Only one other thing i do different from you it looks like. Your bars are physically resting on the muslin cloth inside the basket. It's possible to get holes rubbed in the filter from the bars moving around. I put my filter on the outside of the basket and let the bars rub on the plastic casing that i drilled holes in for solution transfer. It's more durable that way. The basket acts as a support frame work for the filter allowing me to pull it tight.
kadriver
Well-known member
I have heard from others that muslin can be a problem with solids from inside filter getting through and into the electrolyte.
With muslin, this can happen even if the bag is disturbed, or lifted out of the electrolyte (so I have been told).
For this reason, I do not use muslin for a filter material.
I am using dacron filter bags from Lowes. They are for a wet vac and i have modified them to fit inside the basket.
They are tough as nails and I have never had a problem with solids getting into the electrolyte.
I can lift the bag right out of the electrolyte and not have even the slightest concern of solids from inside the bag getting into the pure silver.
I always use double thickness (a filter bag inside a filter bag). This may slow the flow of silver, but it is worth the piece of mind.
I did have one fail due to the crystals contacting the bag once, but that was back when i was running a much higher voltage through the cell.
I was using a battery charger or something. The higher voltage cause the crystals to grow real long and thin.
The result was these thin crystals grew quickly and I was alway knocking them down.
With the proper voltage set at between 1.5 volts DC to 3.8 volts DC, the crystals grow fatter instead of longer, and I have never experienced a bag short-out at these voltages.
I am also piling anode bars on top of the electrode bar to keep it pressed down on the anode bars that are below it and in contact with the electrolyte.
As the bars at the bottom dissolve, the extra weigh on top keeps everthing pushed down, which helps ensure good electrical contact as well.
I don't think that the bars can rub a hole in this material, it is very tough (but I could be wrong).
kadriver
With muslin, this can happen even if the bag is disturbed, or lifted out of the electrolyte (so I have been told).
For this reason, I do not use muslin for a filter material.
I am using dacron filter bags from Lowes. They are for a wet vac and i have modified them to fit inside the basket.
They are tough as nails and I have never had a problem with solids getting into the electrolyte.
I can lift the bag right out of the electrolyte and not have even the slightest concern of solids from inside the bag getting into the pure silver.
I always use double thickness (a filter bag inside a filter bag). This may slow the flow of silver, but it is worth the piece of mind.
I did have one fail due to the crystals contacting the bag once, but that was back when i was running a much higher voltage through the cell.
I was using a battery charger or something. The higher voltage cause the crystals to grow real long and thin.
The result was these thin crystals grew quickly and I was alway knocking them down.
With the proper voltage set at between 1.5 volts DC to 3.8 volts DC, the crystals grow fatter instead of longer, and I have never experienced a bag short-out at these voltages.
I am also piling anode bars on top of the electrode bar to keep it pressed down on the anode bars that are below it and in contact with the electrolyte.
As the bars at the bottom dissolve, the extra weigh on top keeps everthing pushed down, which helps ensure good electrical contact as well.
I don't think that the bars can rub a hole in this material, it is very tough (but I could be wrong).
kadriver
philddreamer
Well-known member
Kad, why don't you pour bigger anodes?
kadriver
Well-known member
The basket that the anodes sit in on top the cell is just right to keep the distance from the sides and bottom of the cell at 4 to 4.5 inches (the recommended distance).
I may get a square mold (insted of the rectangular that I use now).
I guess i just got used to using this shape.
I may get a square mold (insted of the rectangular that I use now).
I guess i just got used to using this shape.
philddreamer
Well-known member
Thanks!
kadriver
Well-known member
Here is some more cement silver. It took 4 days to completely cement out the silver.
There was much black powder at the end, might be PGMs.
The black that cemented out last turned the color of the silver powder to a dark grey.
The anode bars melted kind of funny, due to the PGM contanmination I suppose.
The cement silver is usually nice and light colored and melts almost like silver crystal from the silver cell.
The powder in this photo came from a 19th century pitcher and two sterling bowls.
The weight before nitric digestion was 971 grams.
After digestion in nitric, and cementing with copper pipe, the weight of the cement silver after drying completely was 844 grams.
SO, 844 grams of cement silver is about 87% of the original weight or 971 grams - but there was filter papers that contained a few grams.
kadriver
There was much black powder at the end, might be PGMs.
The black that cemented out last turned the color of the silver powder to a dark grey.
The anode bars melted kind of funny, due to the PGM contanmination I suppose.
The cement silver is usually nice and light colored and melts almost like silver crystal from the silver cell.
The powder in this photo came from a 19th century pitcher and two sterling bowls.
The weight before nitric digestion was 971 grams.
After digestion in nitric, and cementing with copper pipe, the weight of the cement silver after drying completely was 844 grams.
SO, 844 grams of cement silver is about 87% of the original weight or 971 grams - but there was filter papers that contained a few grams.
kadriver
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amesametrita
While it is obvious you have a background in refining, it is my opinion you are taking the wrong approach to this forum.
I came to this forum after a working career in refining and I was amazed at the things you can learn form the varied approaches our members take at the same task. I learned from that and I am better at what I do and of more value to my clients because of it. While it is true what you say about the geometry of the bowl, it is in fact a very cost effective solution but its efficiency suffers. But not the purity of the final product. In the end what are we after?
For years the refining industry were a closed mouth bunch (it still largely is) and outside input just wasn't free flowing. The knowledgeable people in the trade never compared notes and technology suffered. This forum to me is like a giant crucible where many different thinking members freely discuss their ideas and from that comes a wonderful opportunity to learn and discover new methods, its all in the way you look at it.
As Thomas Edison once said, "I have not failed 10,000 times, I have successfully found 10,000 ways that will not work"
we can all learn from people discussing both their successes and their failures, and decide on our own which ideas have merit.
While it is obvious you have a background in refining, it is my opinion you are taking the wrong approach to this forum.
I came to this forum after a working career in refining and I was amazed at the things you can learn form the varied approaches our members take at the same task. I learned from that and I am better at what I do and of more value to my clients because of it. While it is true what you say about the geometry of the bowl, it is in fact a very cost effective solution but its efficiency suffers. But not the purity of the final product. In the end what are we after?
For years the refining industry were a closed mouth bunch (it still largely is) and outside input just wasn't free flowing. The knowledgeable people in the trade never compared notes and technology suffered. This forum to me is like a giant crucible where many different thinking members freely discuss their ideas and from that comes a wonderful opportunity to learn and discover new methods, its all in the way you look at it.
As Thomas Edison once said, "I have not failed 10,000 times, I have successfully found 10,000 ways that will not work"
we can all learn from people discussing both their successes and their failures, and decide on our own which ideas have merit.
