Typical Refiners Fees and Margins

[RennVin]

Good Afternoon, I am so pleased to have found this forum. The level of knowledge here and spirit of collaboration really is extraordinary. I have several general question regarding the marketing of Gold to refiners within the US and Canada and I suppose globally. I am trying to gather the rules of the road for refiners and for sellers.

My company has a moderate but steady supply of both Au and PGMs which are a novel profit center for our business. Primarily we are in the mineral sand arena, however we have processed concentrate with economic values of Gold and PGMs. I know this is a gold forum, however our Dore typically possesses 15 to 20% PGMs.

What are the preferred volumes and corresponding price advantages per transaction.
The small refiner we work with charges 8% for processing (<20oz) based on the London spot and is not particularly interested in PGMs. Volumes of 20oz or more are charged 5% processing fees.

What is a typical operating margin for net purchasers of gold.

When negotiating with refiners where are the key points of leverage.

Besides the obvious motive to sell at high valuations are there demand forecasts or technical triggers to observe in day to day trading that can create advantages for the seller/producer. I understand that we are discussing small transactions here however any advice would be helpful.

Many Thanks

 

[4metals]

Good Afternoon, I am so pleased to have found this forum. The level of knowledge here and spirit of collaboration really is extraordinary. I have several general question regarding the marketing of Gold to refiners within the US and Canada and I suppose globally. I am trying to gather the rules of the road for refiners and for sellers.

My company has a moderate but steady supply of both Au and PGMs which are a novel profit center for our business. Primarily we are in the mineral sand arena, however we have processed concentrate with economic values of Gold and PGMs. I know this is a gold forum, however our Dore typically possesses 15 to 20% PGMs.

What are the preferred volumes and corresponding price advantages per transaction.
The small refiner we work with charges 8% for processing (<20oz) based on the London spot and is not particularly interested in PGMs. Volumes of 20oz or more are charged 5% processing fees.

What is a typical operating margin for net purchasers of gold.

When negotiating with refiners where are the key points of leverage.

Besides the obvious motive to sell at high valuations are there demand forecasts or technical triggers to observe in day to day trading that can create advantages for the seller/producer. I understand that we are discussing small transactions here however any advice would be helpful.

Many Thanks

Typically major refiners do not have the capacity to deal with small volumes. It is just too costly for the sampling and assaying and paperwork required for small lots. They are dealing with what they call collectors. The refiner you sell to who charges you 8%, would be considered a collector.
Collectors are able to determine the value (or approximate the value) and offer you terms with the understanding that your material will be batched with other material from their other clients to get lot sizes up and get more favorable rates from their refiner.
Two red flags here. One is the 8% charge and the second is they are

not particularly interested in PGMs

Truth is they are very interested in PGM’s, they’re just not interested in paying you for them. They will be paid for them depending on the concentration.

Do you have an XRF result of your Dorè? This will be helpful in your receiving some information you can work with.

 

[orvi]

My company has a moderate but steady supply of both Au and PGMs which are a novel profit center for our business. Primarily we are in the mineral sand arena, however we have processed concentrate with economic values of Gold and PGMs. I know this is a gold forum, however our Dore typically possesses 15 to 20% PGMs.

What are the preferred volumes and corresponding price advantages per transaction.
The small refiner we work with charges 8% for processing (<20oz) based on the London spot and is not particularly interested in PGMs. Volumes of 20oz or more are charged 5% processing fees.

I can strongly agree with 4metals on this:

Two red flags here. One is the 8% charge and the second is they are
"not particularly interested in PGMs"
Truth is they are very interested in PGM’s, they’re just not interested in paying you for them. They will be paid for them depending on the concentration.

Numerous middleman and small "collector" businesses keep the "vibe" that PGMs are not interesting metals for them, just to convince people with less experience, that PGMs complicate everything and they do not want to pay for them because of that. This is simply NOT TRUE.

We had an issue with metallic material containing around 0.5-2.5 % Rh. Buyer happily said, he do not pay for Rh, because it is just as "impurity" in the mixture. He will surely be paid for Rh, but he has the leverage over us, small sellers, because we do not have that many options with low quantity of materials.
PGMs are often selled for less % compared to gold, because of more difficult managing and refining, that is true. But not that much, that you won´t be paid for them, even in low concentrations.

It would be helpful to know what PGMs are in the dore. 15-20 % isn´t bad concentration to get a fair price. There are PGMs - espetially Ru and Os - which are more of a problem then advantage, when it comes to the dore´s composition. Refining with Ru and Os is much more dangerous due to toxicity of their tetroxides - which are created in the process of refining.

 

[RennVin]

4Metals, thank you for your quick response and clarification. We initially were encouraged to approach Asahi with our product and were pointed to a smaller outfit in SLC who as you describe collect smaller volumes for Asahi and others. I suspect that they are mostly dealing with retail customers and so forth.

I will post the XRF and fire assays a little later today, my colleague has those files.

Thanks Again

 

[Lou]

Asahi is probably the wrong fit for that material anyways. If it's that high grade in PGMs it should go direct digestion rather than getting thrown in a furnace, melted, and blown with chlorine like that. Must have a bunch of silver if no one wants to pay you. Usually silver + PGMs and Au is what ticks the big refiners a la JM off...

 

[RennVin]

4Metals/Orvi, its good to meet you. Thank you for you for sharing your experience. I will post some data to further the discussion.

Orvi, what are the typical processing fees that you are paying to your collectors?

 

[RennVin]

Thank you Lou, good to meet you. I appreciate your input. We have a small fraction of silver in our Dore.

I think the issue here has more to do with our lack of experience in the field and less to do with our material.

Interestingly the last dore we sold was inverted in values with 40%Au and 60%PGM- the full suite including Ru and Os.

The offer(which we accepted) was spot for the gold and 75% spot for the PGMs-less 8%.

It seems to me that we need to find a better partner, and maybe further our separation to work with the likes of JM.

 

[Palladium]

What is your volume of production?

 

[Swissgoldrefiner]

Thank you Lou, good to meet you. I appreciate your input. We have a small fraction of silver in our Dore.

I think the issue here has more to do with our lack of experience in the field and less to do with our material.

Interestingly the last dore we sold was inverted in values with 40%Au and 60%PGM- the full suite including Ru and Os.

The offer(which we accepted) was spot for the gold and 75% spot for the PGMs-less 8%.

It seems to me that we need to find a better partner, and maybe further our separation to work with the likes of JM.

The matter is that your compound come from primary sources. It's always harder to get good quote for that kind of stuff than for recycled item. Most of refinery in Switzerland dont accept anymore gold or PGM from mining.

 

[Geo]

You would benefit yourself greatly to learn how to isolate the PGM's from your metals yourself. If you are concentrated on the gold only, you are basically just giving your money away. It is hard to find a national refinery that will buy 10 ounces of rhodium or less. I know because I tried. I was put in contact with a speculator that will buy smaller amounts but it takes about a month to get paid. A speculator is not a refinery. They receive the metal and pass it on to their refinery who will test the metal with fire assay and XRF and pay you on content. These speculators do not advertise. It's usually by word of mouth. Palladium is much more easily sold because Pd is used in the jewelry industry. Most national refineries will buy palladium but unless you pay for the privilege, they will only pay on one metal. A three way or four way assay cost and unless the content is high enough, may not be worth it. That's why it would profit you in the long run to learn how to separate the PGM's yourself.

 

[snoman701]

Quantity you usually sell in is going to be really important.

What were the percentages of Osmium and Ruthenium?

 

[Kustommolds]

Hello, where are you located? I could work a deal with you that's very reasonable

Good Afternoon, I am so pleased to have found this forum. The level of knowledge here and spirit of collaboration really is extraordinary. I have several general question regarding the marketing of Gold to refiners within the US and Canada and I suppose globally. I am trying to gather the rules of the road for refiners and for sellers.

My company has a moderate but steady supply of both Au and PGMs which are a novel profit center for our business. Primarily we are in the mineral sand arena, however we have processed concentrate with economic values of Gold and PGMs. I know this is a gold forum, however our Dore typically possesses 15 to 20% PGMs.

What are the preferred volumes and corresponding price advantages per transaction.
The small refiner we work with charges 8% for processing (<20oz) based on the London spot and is not particularly interested in PGMs. Volumes of 20oz or more are charged 5% processing fees.

What is a typical operating margin for net purchasers of gold.

When negotiating with refiners where are the key points of leverage.

Besides the obvious motive to sell at high valuations are there demand forecasts or technical triggers to observe in day to day trading that can create advantages for the seller/producer. I understand that we are discussing small transactions here however any advice would be helpful.

Many Thanks

 

[orvi]

4Metals/Orvi, its good to meet you. Thank you for you for sharing your experience. I will post some data to further the discussion.

Orvi, what are the typical processing fees that you are paying to your collectors?

We do the recovery work for ourselves - and our product is either PGM powder or ingot (as desired). That means we do not have that processing fee included. But for PtPd I think we go 85+% spot (if it is PtPd mostly), for Rh I think only 70 (and Rh need to be 15+% in the melt, otherwise not paid for). But these are older numbers, now I do not know exactly - and I must say I do not know much about selling/buying these materials, since I am just a worker, not the owner of the shop and material. If these are good numbers, I don´t know. But I certainly seen worse, much worse.

 

[trdking]

my processor charges me 10% on 15 to 20,000 pounds of shredded Board. We take a continuous small sample off the side of the shredder and process the small batch locally so we can send them yields. It keeps them honest which is the biggest problem with processors. Unless you know what to expect they will short you. Going to large processors will allow you to capture everything Gold Silver Palladium Platinum Copper etc. On 15k pounds of board I average 47 to 50 OZ of pure gold and about 400 oz of pure silver plus the other metals. Platinum and paladium are usually and OZ to an Ounce and a half Very small compared to the gold yield

 

[orvi]

my processor charges me 10% on 15 to 20,000 pounds of shredded Board. We take a continuous small sample off the side of the shredder and process the small batch locally so we can send them yields. It keeps them honest which is the biggest problem with processors. Unless you know what to expect they will short you. Going to large processors will allow you to capture everything Gold Silver Palladium Platinum Copper etc. On 15k pounds of board I average 47 to 50 OZ of pure gold and about 400 oz of pure silver plus the other metals. Platinum and paladium are usually and OZ to an Ounce and a half Very small compared to the gold yield

If you have this volume of material, than you encounter less problems regarding rejecting the material, not paying for some values inside, lower % of spot on sell, and our favourite "ladder of middlemans" nice recovery by the way.

 

[fastback19]

I been dealing with a company that is paying PGMS accordingly
-PT 97%
-RH 89%
-RU 72%
-IR 75%

+ You have to - a few other costs for example
Treatment Cost 4500 USD & even interest because the refinery doesn't pay 60 to 90 days.

Keep doing research & there are companies who pay better.

 

[DBAU]

What do you think of this pricing based on 1,876.40$Usd:
10k= 21.07$/gr
14k= 29.58$/gr
18k= 38.40$/gr

 

[4metals]

What do you think of this pricing based on 1,876.40$Usd:
10k= 21.07$/gr
14k= 29.58$/gr
18k= 38.40$/gr

your rates were better in canadian dollars
now you're at 16.18% for 10 karat
15.95% for 14 karat
15.13% for 18 karat

your pricing ranges from 7.9% for 10k to 6.2% for 22k.
you are paying more than most "we buy gold" walk in stores but I don't think you will find a lot of takers here.

these were what you posted in Canadian dollars

Here in the US, people doing "gold parties" where buyers using only a touch stone pay better than that.

 

[DBAU]

Do you think I can find better prices in wholesale than this in Canada? Is your average prices in the USA better than this?

https://online.kitco.com/refining/gold-silver-CAD.html

 

[4metals]

What exactly are you trying to do, buy scrap and refine it in house or buy scrap pay on it and ship to a refiner?

In the US with the proper volume you can get rates well under 1% total cost to you.