where does the refiner make money

[Yggdrasil]

What

What do you mean, I said it pretty clearly, you don't have to be rude and I don't have to be a member of this forum either. As I just said I tried and failed to cupel my own silver. I'll go into further detail if that's what you mean. I used lead portland cement and borax as well as my oxygen acetylene torch to cupel silver brazing rod that I have been saving up over the last year from my refrigeration job with no success.
First mistake was to use Borax, the molten metal need to be in contact with Oxygen so nothing can cover it.
Next is to use a torch, it is possible but hard even for experienced people, electric kiln is the key to successful cupelling.
How much Silver and Copper are there in the brazing rods and how much material do you cupel at the time?
Can you give us exact number for the Lead, Brazing and Cupel size?
Copper is usually a NoNO for cupelling.
So, I looked into multiple refiners in my area and was reading reviews about theft. I don't have any interest in selling my silver that I've accumulated and would like to get it back after it has been refined.

First welcome to us.

He said what he said because your post did not contain any information other than that your cupel failed and you are in Dallas.
There was nothing rude about that.
Now you have given us some more information and we may start asking more targeted questions and give some advice.
I'll comment in bold in the quote.

 

[goldshark]

What

What do you mean, I said it pretty clearly, you don't have to be rude and I don't have to be a member of this forum either. As I just said I tried and failed to cupel my own silver. I'll go into further detail if that's what you mean. I used lead portland cement and borax as well as my oxygen acetylene torch to cupel silver brazing rod that I have been saving up over the last year from my refrigeration job with no success. So, I looked into multiple refiners in my area and was reading reviews about theft. I don't have any interest in selling my silver that I've accumulated and would like to get it back after it has been refined.

I am not being rude, I only asked for more info so we can maybe diagnose your problem. First off, when cupeling, no flux should be used.

 

[galenrog]

The first thing I noticed was tacking your first post on the Forum to the end of a 15 year old thread. No context. No mention of who you may have been replying to.

Had Goldshark and Yggdrasil not replied to you first, I would likely have made similar comments.

And no, goldshark was not rude, at least in comparison to me.

Time for more coffee.

 

[cort]

I am not being rude, I only asked for more info so we can maybe diagnose your problem. First off, when cupeling, no flux should be used.

The mind reading thing isn't exactly polite, any ways. Why is copper usually a no no for cupeling?

 

[cort]

The mind reading thing isn't exactly polite, any ways. Why is copper usually a no no for cupeling?

The mind reading thing isn't exactly polite, any ways. Why is copper usually a no no for cupeling?

I used clean non alloyed lead, a small stainless steel ladle and portland cement for the cupel, in the cupelation video from owl tech he used a propane torch and the same setup I'm attempting as well as mentioning some sort of flux recepie, he never mentions what his flux recepie so after a lot of online research I landed on borax, which most websites say to use anhydrous borax but that regular borax can also do the trick

 

[Yggdrasil]

I used clean non alloyed lead, a small stainless steel ladle and portland cement for the cupel, in the cupelation video from owl tech he used a propane torch and the same setup I'm attempting as well as mentioning some sort of flux recepie, he never mentions what his flux recepie so after a lot of online research I landed on borax, which most websites say to use anhydrous borax but that regular borax can also do the trick

No, the mind reading part should be included every time someone asks for help without giving information.
Which is basically what you did.
Copper is hard to cupel,
because the oxides form at very high temperatures and maybe the cupel will not absorb them so readily.

Anyway what is the steel ladle for?
Cupelling can be done with a torch, but it is hard and demands some experience.
There is a few factors that are important for a cupel to work.
1. Correct temperature for sufficiently long time.
2. Access to oxygen.
3. Big enough Cupel to absorb the litharge and oxides as they form.

By using a Hand torch one might struggle with part 1.
If you use flux or Borax part 2 fails and the cupelling fails, no matter how you heat it.
If part 3 is too small the cupelling will not complete.


When cupelling one often scorify the material first, maybe that can use fluxes, I'm not sure.
It is a kind of pre-oxidizing/roasting step.

 

[4metals]

Maybe I'm missing something, like the part where you say what type of solder you are trying to cupel. Let's restart and let cort say exactly what type of solder he is trying to recover the silver from and what quantity of material is being processed.

It is entirely possible that cupellation is not the way to process this material, and knowing what the feedstock is will go a long way towards determining that.

 

[richard_1]

Ive had a refinery for 30 years. I have found often customers with e-waste for example have an unreal expectation of whats its worth. I understand they want a good return. We all do, its benefits us all. Sometimes people just spend their time and energy on the wrong product. E.g. thay waste days stripping plugs with gold plated pins and get a couple of kg that return 0.5 gram of gold. Refining charges would need to come out of that half gram to cover costs as well. Its flash plated gold at maybe 2 microns it will never return a profit for your time. Spending time finding and paying for broken jewellery and onselling to your refiner will give you a much better return. Work with solids rather than plated material if you are able to.

I havent heard of cupelling silver welding rod, i would suggest you dissolve it in nitric, (study the safety and waste requirements), use only enough acid to dissolve it, add 30% water to stop it crystallising into silver nitrate, add copper bar to the solution to cement out your silver. Knowing some of the nasty elements in welding rod, cadmium for example, we tend not to melt to protect our staff.

Honest refiners arn't hard to find. Just ask for the recommended ones. They will be doing their job properly. Understand that there are small losses each melt. Its part of refining not a way of ripping people off. Pick your material to refine and dont blame others for unrealistic expectations. Do this and you will be fine.

 

[offtrailhiker]

I've probably sent in 10-12 troy ounces of fine gold to Aragold, a refinery based in Dallas, TX that advertises a 98% payout on gold. Each time, the expected payout was just that, as expected. I have some very nice balances (in fact, nicer that what the refinery uses!) and I knew exactly how much gold I sent in.

They're still there. Good to know. Thanks.

 

[goldshark]

Maybe I'm missing something, like the part where you say what type of solder you are trying to cupel. Let's restart and let cort say exactly what type of solder he is trying to recover the silver from and what quantity of material is being processed.

It is entirely possible that cupellation is not the way to process this material, and knowing what the feedstock is will go a long way towards determining that.

I have seen " Silver " solder alloyed with Tin, usually at the low end of 5% Silver/95% Tin, up to 60% AG/40%Sn. So would imagine I would go the in quart method using HCL. I have never done this, so would think it may turn into a mess. Other option would be the Parkes process, but don't know how well it would work with Sn vs Pb. Others, please help me, as I would like to know myself.

 

[goldshark]

I have seen " Silver " solder alloyed with Tin, usually at the low end of 5% Silver/95% Tin, up to 60% AG/40%Sn. So would imagine I would go the in quart method using HCL. I have never done this, so would think it may turn into a mess. Other option would be the Parkes process, but don't know how well it would work with Sn vs Pb. Others, please help me, as I would like to know myself.

Meant to say in quart to a 75% Silver content, then part with Nitric, leaving the Sn behind. Cement out on Copper.

 

[Yggdrasil]

The OP said he had been collecting Brazing from refrigeration work for years.
Even though it is a kind of solder I think it has its own category.
When that is said, not all brazing has Silver in it.

 

[markscomp]

I ran out of gas today ..... Why?

 

[4metals]

I ran out of gas today ..... Why?

We need more details, what type of car, what octane gas, how fast were you driving? If you give more details you will get much more informative responses.

 

[Darkthirty]

We need more details, what type of car, what octane gas, how fast were you driving? If you give more details you will get much more informative responses.

He ran out of beans the day before...

 

[anarxi]

Ive had a refinery for 30 years. Its flash plated gold at maybe 2 microns it will never return a profit for your time.

perhaps microinches? 2 microns - a very good layer

 

[Muratthechemist]

I agree.
Usually an honest refiner makes a profit in these ways:
1) The spread between his buy and sell.
2) Refining charges.
3) Surcharge over Spot to end users he sells to.
4) Gambling. He will hedge most purchases, but play the market and hold for a higher price to sell.
5) Metals he doesn't pay you for or pays a low percentage for. It's not his job to teach you metallurgy. You must know your material. If you sell on assay, and don't say "I know it has significant (fill in PGM here), assay for it," he won't. So he can't pay you for it. And if he says "I'll assay for (list lots of PGMs here)" he would be ripping you off in assay charges if the yield is low, so he won't say that.
6) Assay charges. The cupellation is a batch process, but you will be charged labor as if all the time was spent on your sample. This is fair, because when business is slow, yours may be the only assay.
7) Metal contained in slag from the melt. He won't give you the slag unless you ask. The vast majority of customers would not know what to do with it anyway. I have seen it offered by refiners, to be met with a puzzled look from the customer. Is this honest? Again, not his job to teach.
It is dishonest if he uses a thick, viscous flux and stirs rapidly and roughly right before the pour.

These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. We smaller refiners don't make the Spot surcharge. That goes to the refiner we sell it to. When we sell to end users like casters, we have to work hard at selling to get more than spot.

There are many refineries around the world,
Some of them charge as gram some of them charge as dollars per kgs.
If you in dubai, charges are little bit less because you are making 50-100kg per operation.
But for example in some country like Turkey, you charge 2 grams per kilogram.
In that case you can make profit and also there are many list that GeeDub shared in addition.
Some of machineries can pays itself in 2 years with very good prices.
You can also make it in your own and most useful part is if you are jewelery producer, refining machines are very very good results as safety and productivity.

 

[GoIdman]

What

What do you mean, I said it pretty clearly, you don't have to be rude and I don't have to be a member of this forum either. As I just said I tried and failed to cupel my own silver. I'll go into further detail if that's what you mean. I used lead portland cement and borax as well as my oxygen acetylene torch to cupel silver brazing rod that I have been saving up over the last year from my refrigeration job with no success. So, I looked into multiple refiners in my area and was reading reviews about theft. I don't have any interest in selling my silver that I've accumulated and would like to get it back after it has been refined.

If you process silver brazing rods which can vary from 1% silver up to 35% silver alloyed with copper, the best method is to "weld" a few rods together and use a copper sulfate electrolite cell to separate the copper from the silver. Then you can cupel the contaminated silver mud with lead.

Pete

 

[Ayham Hafez]

No, the mind reading part should be included every time someone asks for help without giving information.
Which is basically what you did.
Copper is hard to cupel,
because the oxides form at very high temperatures and maybe the cupel will not absorb them so readily.

Anyway what is the steel ladle for?
Cupelling can be done with a torch, but it is hard and demands some experience.
There is a few factors that are important for a cupel to work.
1. Correct temperature for sufficiently long time.
2. Access to oxygen.
3. Big enough Cupel to absorb the litharge and oxides as they form.

By using a Hand torch one might struggle with part 1.
If you use flux or Borax part 2 fails and the cupelling fails, no matter how you heat it.
If part 3 is too small the cupelling will not complete.


When cupelling one often scorify the material first, maybe that can use fluxes, I'm not sure.
It is a kind of pre-oxidizing/roasting step.

I heard some one use following recipe to get copper and PM's from e-waste:
Per 100 kg ash with 20 % metal 60 kg borax, 30 kg soda ash, 20 kg lead oxide, 20 kg fresh lead


Then after finish smelting he start cupellation, after finish he got 30 kg of copper button with PM's (more than 99% Cu).

I wonder if this process is believable? How lead doesn't oxidize copper? If yes, how we can know when cupollation is finished before copper been oxidize,I mean can we use cupollation to get copper?

 

[Yggdrasil]

I heard some one use following recipe to get copper and PM's from e-waste:
Per 100 kg ash with 20 % metal 60 kg borax, 30 kg soda ash, 20 kg lead oxide, 20 kg fresh lead


Then after finish smelting he start cupellation, after finish he got 30 kg of copper button with PM's (more than 99% Cu).

I wonder if this process is believable? How lead doesn't oxidize copper? If yes, how we can know when cupollation is finished before copper been oxidize,I mean can we use cupollation to get copper?

I'm not proficient in cupelling.
But what I have read is that Copper is not wanted on the button since it do not oxidize well under the cupelling conditions.
Additionally I believe the oxide do not permeate well into the cupel itself.