Not even new to this yet.

I've recently inherited a sum of gold and silver. After looking around on the web for a couple of weeks, I've become very keen on refining. My mom also has some things that she would like refined. I know that I could simply send it off and be done with it, but I like a challenge. I wouldn't necessarily be in it for the money. I'm quite fond of hobbies and I'm a very Science-driven guy (I'm an amateur Astronomer and I've built my own observatory in the back yard), so refining is very intriguing to me. After reading A LOT on this site, I know that the first thing I should do is read Hoke's book, which I've downloaded from a link posted in the forums (Thanks) and will get to reading tonight. However, no matter what Hoke tells me, this is something that I am going to do. That being said, I tend to go all out when it comes to my hobbies. I will be starting small (as most recommend), to get familiar with the order of things and to avoid destroying too much of anything, just in case. However, I foresee myself creating a specific area in my workshop for this expedition.

So, the main questions I am asking are: What kind of furnaces do you use? I would prefer to use a furnace over a torch system. Is it even worth melting down scrap copper, considering that the energy/fuel use would probably eat up all profitable value?

greyscout said:

However, I foresee myself creating a specific area in my workshop for this expedition.

So, the main questions I am asking are: What kind of furnaces do you use? I would prefer to use a furnace over a torch system. Is it even worth melting down scrap copper, considering that the energy/fuel use would probably eat up all profitable value?

Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum.

First, I hope your workshop is not in your house. Never refine in your home. If it's not in your house, I hope there is nothing else in it that you value, as the fumes from refining will quickly destroy most metals. If you're serious about refining, you'll need a dedicated, isolated space.

Unless you have a lot of gold and silver to melt, a torch and melting dish is better suited to the task than a furnace.

I'm not sure why you're wanting to melt down copper scrap, but the cost of fuel is definitely a consideration.

In addition to Hoke's book, I'd also suggest the following links.

Read EVERYTHING in the Safety section of the forum, especially the Dealing with Waste topic. No amount of precious metal is worth jeopardizing your health or the health of those around you.

Follow the Guided Tour created by LazerSteve. It will provide an introduction to the forum and numerous valuable links including the General Reactions List. Be sure to follow the link to his web site as he has many outstanding videos, a collection of great reference documents, and he sells a lot of the supplies needed to get started including detailed instructional DVDs. Samuel-a also has a lot of videos, guides and tutorials at his web site Gold-N-Scrap.

You'll also find a tremendous amount of information in the two Forum Handbooks compiled by aflacglobal, Forum Handbook Vol 1 and Forum Handbook Vol 2.

There is one last post that I think every member should read. ms32462 shared this experience with us : http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=11957

Dave

Thanks for the reply, Dave. My workshop is NOT in my house and I had planned on installing a fume hood. It's pretty important that I have an indoor location for this, as I am in the swimming pool industry and only have time for hobbies in the Winter. Perhaps I could incorporate walls around the proposed location in the workshop?

I currently have several troy ounces worth of pure gold in 10k and 14k jewelry (total weight over 8 ounces). As I said, I tend to go all out and using a furnace just makes more sense to me. That being said, are there any furnaces that are recommended? I'm an Amazon.com frequenter and I found this (http://www.amazon.com/FURNACE-Recovery-Refining-Melting-Crucible/dp/B007D05CJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393267986&sr=8-1&keywords=gold+furnace), but I'd like to hear from the pros.

The copper scrap question was just a question. This is primarily a hobby and turning a pound of copper wire into an ingot would feel good to accomplish.

Thank you very much for your detailed Index of the "should do's". I will follow.

Hi,
Welcome to the forum.
Let me tell you about what happened with the furnace from Diamond.
I bought it on ebay for $212.50 AUCTION.
The first one over heated and burned up.
the second one looked like a bulldozer ran it over,
the third one I pluged in turned on and the electronics burned out.
I gave up and he refunded the money.
A good company to deal with but a poor product.
Here is a link to a kiln that will do the job you need.I bought the $265.00 one.I use it when I am not using my gas furnace.
john
http://aimkiln.com/aimsmallceramickilns.htm

greyscout said:

Thanks for the reply, Dave. My workshop is NOT in my house and I had planned on installing a fume hood. It's pretty important that I have an indoor location for this, as I am in the swimming pool industry and only have time for hobbies in the Winter. Perhaps I could incorporate walls around the proposed location in the workshop?

I currently have several troy ounces worth of pure gold in 10k and 14k jewelry (total weight over 8 ounces). As I said, I tend to go all out and using a furnace just makes more sense to me. That being said, are there any furnaces that are recommended? I'm an Amazon.com frequenter and I found this (http://www.amazon.com/FURNACE-Recovery-Refining-Melting-Crucible/dp/B007D05CJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393267986&sr=8-1&keywords=gold+furnace), but I'd like to hear from the pros.

The copper scrap question was just a question. This is primarily a hobby and turning a pound of copper wire into an ingot would feel good to accomplish.

Thank you very much for your detailed Index of the "should do's". I will follow.

Click to expand...

I've got a couple things to consider about your plans.

First, 10k and 14k jewelry can be identified as far as its value and is easier/cheaper to sell at least locally. Once it is melted or even refined, the buyer is likely to have to assay it to determine it's value. This will cut into the profits. I'm not saying don't do it but just consider how you plan to sell it.

As far as the copper ingot goes, I'd also love to do that just to do it. Same problem, scrap yards know what copper wire is. Once melted, they have no way of knowing if it is pure copper wire, copper pipe, or if it has brass, bronze or other things mixed in. Check with the local scrap yard (or where ever you might sell it) to find out if they will take it and if there is any difference in price. I've never checked but it would be worth investigating before you spend the time and effort to do it. Also, copper isn't as easy to melt as gold or silver without oxidising it. A furnace might help with that as well as the right flux. The cost probably isn't worth doing but it does sound fun to try even if it is only to get a bar of copper for your own collection. I have seen ingots of aluminum at the local scrap yard that looked like someone melted it and poured it into angle iron molds (triangle shaped bars) and talked to a guy once who had a way to melt a whole engine at one time and collected the molten aluminum as well as the steel and other metal that didn't melt. If I remember right, I think he told me he could melt it in about 15 minutes. He used propane but didn't say how much.

Do all the research before getting too much invested in this idea. I'm not trying to discourage you at all. I just know it is easy to rush into something without investigating the final process of selling your self-refined metal. I know it is a fun and interesting hobby but, if making some money is your goal, make sure you know what you are getting into. It is obviously possible to make money at this (many here are doing it) but there are also people like me that (so far) has spent more than the value of gold we get back. It takes time and/or money to turn a hobby into a paying business.

Don't give up. Like I said, I'm not trying to discourage you. If you have the interest (which you obviously do) then go for it. Everything you need to learn is right here on this forum if you spend the time to search it out including how to build your own fume hood and scrubber as well as how to properly dispose of the waste produced.

@ John: Thanks for your review (or story). Most kiln manufacturers will say that their kilns are not suitable for refinery. There's not much information on the webpage that you linked. While your word means something to me, I just feel like I should purchase a furnace that is specifically created for metals (not ceramics). I do thank you for your input on the Amazon furnace. There's not much more in this world that I hate as much as receiving something that doesn't work.

@ bmgold: As I said, this is more of a hobby than a venture for $. Any gold that I do purify would be barred and stored away. I just want the satisfaction of purifying it myself and seeing the outcome. Thank you for the info on copper melting. I hadn't thought of the oxidizing. I still have much to learn. On the same note, I'd just be doing it to do it... or maybe I'd create some neat shapes with it.... who knows? I am probably going to dream about melting an entire engine tonight. That is extremely cool.... or hot. I'm making no purchases until I've read Hoke's book and followed the instructions of Dave's.

Thank you all. Does anyone know anything about http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ELECTRIC-MELTING-GOLD-DIGITAL-FURNACE-35-Oz-1Kg-SCRAP-METALS-REFINERS-/160930560011?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257835780b ? It's impossible to find any reviews.

greyscout

Forget going with an electric furnace - they are ok if all you are ever going to do is melt pure metals & you don't ever need to use any flux but if you find your self (in the future) needing to melt/smelt metal where you need to use flux an electric furnace just is not going to cut it

I would go with a propane fired furnace --- I have 2 of them - a smaller one that takes up to a #4 crucible & a large one that takes up to a #40 crucible - here are some pics of my furnace's

The small one cost me $350 & the big one cost me $1200 & that price (on the big one) included a cone mold & a lifting tongs & a pouring tongs

They (propane furnace) will out work & out last any electric furnace

Also you will find that you are going to need melting dishes & torch for the small jobs

Kurt

greyscout said:

Thanks for the reply, Dave. My workshop is NOT in my house and I had planned on installing a fume hood. It's pretty important that I have an indoor location for this, as I am in the swimming pool industry and only have time for hobbies in the Winter. Perhaps I could incorporate walls around the proposed location in the workshop?

I currently have several troy ounces worth of pure gold in 10k and 14k jewelry (total weight over 8 ounces). As I said, I tend to go all out and using a furnace just makes more sense to me. That being said, are there any furnaces that are recommended? I'm an Amazon.com frequenter and I found this (http://www.amazon.com/FURNACE-Recovery-Refining-Melting-Crucible/dp/B007D05CJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393267986&sr=8-1&keywords=gold+furnace), but I'd like to hear from the pros.

The copper scrap question was just a question. This is primarily a hobby and turning a pound of copper wire into an ingot would feel good to accomplish.

Thank you very much for your detailed Index of the "should do's". I will follow.

Click to expand...

If you buy one of those type furnaces, you'll regret it. Harold and I both owned one and both of us think they are worthless. I used mine once and then it sat on the shelf and gathered dust. In fact, you'll regret buying any type of electrical furnace. Go gas.

JHS said:

Hi,
Welcome to the forum.
Let me tell you about what happened with the furnace from Diamond.
I bought it on ebay for $212.50 AUCTION.
The first one over heated and burned up.
the second one looked like a bulldozer ran it over,
the third one I pluged in turned on and the electronics burned out.
I gave up and he refunded the money.
A good company to deal with but a poor product.
Here is a link to a kiln that will do the job you need.I bought the $265.00 one.I use it when I am not using my gas furnace.
john
http://aimkiln.com/aimsmallceramickilns.htm

Click to expand...

Bad choice. Might work for awhile if you don't ever spill anything, which is almost impossible to do. All of those kilns are made from soft insulating firebrick. Just a drip of molten flux will cut through the brick like butter. Also, the fumes from the melt will attack the electrical elements and you'll soon need to replace them. Go gas.

Edit: To extend the life of the floor of that furnace or any other, I would cast about a 3/4" thick hearthplate from hi-temp refractory cement to fit the bottom of the furnace, leaving about a 3/8", or so, gap all around. Build a wooden form and put a thin layer of axle grease on the inside to make it easier to separate the dried cement from the wood.

Level a table and put a sheet of plastic (cheapo painting tarp type) on it. Put the form on the plastic and pour in the refractory mix. To reduce cracks, I would mix up and pour 1/2 the thickness, lay some reinforcing wire down, and then mix and then pour the the other 1/2. In case of a big spill (e.g., a broken crucible), I would also build about a 1/2" high, 3/4" wide, berm (curb) around the edge (all 4 sides) with the cement. It doesn't have to be real pretty. Cure it by bringing the temp up slow, maybe from 0 to 2000 over a 4 hour period.

I have seen a few electric furnaces with bottom elements. In that case, I think I would elevate the hearthplate above the elements an inch, or so, with cut pieces of soft firebrick, to get some heat exchange to the elements.

I've melted hundreds, at least, types of items and, in my experience, success is often in the fluxing. And, when you have fluxing, you have spills and foamovers. Soft brick will soon be destroyed. Bone ash powder can be used to absorb these spills while they are molten. Then, you can scrap it out, somehow. If you leave the spills unattended, your crucible bottoms will stick to the hearthplate. Sometimes, it takes a lot of wiggling to get them out.

goldsilverpro said:

If you buy one of those type furnaces, you'll regret it. Harold and I both owned one and both of us think they are worthless. I used mine once and then it sat on the shelf and gathered dust. In fact, you'll regret buying any type of electrical furnace. Go gas.

Click to expand...

Yep - they look nice though - but dusting them off is kind of a pain in the butt :lol:

Kurt

greyscout,
This is just a suggestion for getting started.
It is best not to buy any supplies until you know for sure what you need, I would focus time first on study, and then small experiments, to get acquainted with the reactions, and the processes, purchasing the supplies locally as needed (second hand stores kitchen section is a good place for lab-ware supplies), start with simpler materials like memory fingers, and simple processes, and work your way up getting the equipment to do the jobs as needed, start small low cost lab-ware, Mr. coffee Pyrex coffee pot, corning pyroceram dish, electric solid burner hot plate, glass canning jars, suction bulb and pipettes, fiber glass rod for stirring, catch basins plastic or fiberglass cafeteria trays, (safety supplies gloves lab coat, safety glasses ...), this list will go on somewhat, but these can be the basics to get started, as far as melting I would start off with a torch and melting dishes, a mapp gas torch will work at the beginning, but a gas like natural gas and oxygen, acetylene and oxygen, propane and oxygen torch is more useful, you can build your own propane or natural gas furnace fairly cheaply easy if you have any mechanical skill, if you find you still have a need for one.

The main things you need to focus on is your education, supplies will be easier to find and you will not be buying things you really do not need, your lab and supply stock of chemical and lab equipment will grow somewhat as you proceed in the learning process, you will also find that you can get or make what you need fairly easily (sometime including chemicals) and can work with tools that you can in second hand stores, or a kitchen.

Kurt, thank you very much. You've steered me away from the pretty stuff. Bright colors don't belong in my workshop anyway. I've looked into propane furnaces and it looks like the kind of thing that I could easily build myself! I would just need some refractory, piping, and scrap. I really don't feel like running a 150' natural gas line to the back of my yard, so propane is the way to go (it seems).

As far as buying supplies, I have no intention of buying anything until I've finished reading everything involved. I'm just trying to get a head-start on ideas. I read about 20 pages of Hoke's book last night and the most amazing thing that I learned is that Hoke is a woman. Sad, but true. I've read so many posts on this forum and never realized Hoke was a woman. It actually intrigued me and makes me more interested (if that was even possible).

greyscout said:

Bright colors don't belong in my workshop anyway. I've looked into propane furnaces and it looks like the kind of thing that I could easily build myself!

Click to expand...

Both of my furnaces are home made (I didn't make them simply because I am to busy with other things) building the furnace is not that hard - the burner is the hard part but still doable --- you have 2 options on the burner as far as air/fuel mixing - ether air injection (like my small furnace) which plugs into my air compressor & is then controlled by adjusting gas flow & air pressure --- or self aspirating (like my big furnace) - I like the self aspirating type better but they both work well

Will try to take pome better pics of the burners & post them later

Kurt

Great. Thanks, Kurt.

Goldsilverpro wrote:Bad choice. Might work for awhile if you don't ever spill anything, which is almost impossible to do. All of those kilns are made from soft insulating firebrick. Just a drip of molten flux will cut through the brick like butter.

He is correct,thats why I poured a 1/2" refractory cement in the bottom of mine.
john

greyscout said:

I read about 20 pages of Hoke's book last night and the most amazing thing that I learned is that Hoke is a woman.

Click to expand...

greyscout,

I'm guessing you found one of the older digital copies of her book. You may find the versions in my signature line more helpful. They include improved images, a lot of corrections to typographical errors that were introduced when the book was originally digitized, and an introduction that can help recognize some points that needed clarification. They also include a nice image of a young Calm Morrison Hoke. 8)

Dave

greyscout said:

Thanks for the reply, Dave. My workshop is NOT in my house and I had planned on installing a fume hood. It's pretty important that I have an indoor location for this, as I am in the swimming pool industry and only have time for hobbies in the Winter. Perhaps I could incorporate walls around the proposed location in the workshop?

Click to expand...

I, for one, heartily endorse an inside work area. So long as it is not attached to your dwelling, so atmosphere can be shared, there's absolutely nothing wrong with working in a shelter. Build it according to your needs.

I currently have several troy ounces worth of pure gold in 10k and 14k jewelry (total weight over 8 ounces). As I said, I tend to go all out and using a furnace just makes more sense to me. That being said, are there any furnaces that are recommended? I'm an Amazon.com frequenter and I found this (http://www.amazon.com/FURNACE-Recovery-Refining-Melting-Crucible/dp/B007D05CJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393267986&sr=8-1&keywords=gold+furnace), but I'd like to hear from the pros.

Click to expand...

Ok, I'll pretend to be a pro, at least for this topic. A furnace is a waste of time. Unless you get involved in huge volumes of karat gold, you can melt faster and more effectively with a torch and melting dish. I had both at my disposal and used the furnace only VERY infrequently, because it was too slow and inefficient. If you don't anticipate batches larger than ten ounces of karat gold at one time, you really don't need a furnace.

I do suggest that your ultimate goal includes a furnace, however. You'll know when it's needed, and when it's not, simply be getting involved.

In regards to melting copper, unless you have a good reason to do so, my suggestion is to forget about it. Copper is not fun to melt, nor is there much of a benefit in doing so unless you have need for the melted copper. If you plan to use it for recovery of silver, it might make sense to melt wire, but, otherwise, I'm at a loss to understand the need.

Harold

Welcome.
I'm at Denver, Pa. between Lancaster and Reading.
Small world huh...

Putting the horse before the cart is a waste of effort. No melting at all needed untill you have something to melt. Like your first baby waiting to become shinny.

As a hobby, look through the "where to find" section. You might find that very interesting. You will also find stuff you wont mind destroying while learning.

Get to the point of having refinned materials before thinking of how to melt it.
That'll take a while so you have plenty of time to dream of the Super fabulous click the switch and have a nice shinny bar to be proud of.

I'm still dreaming of an automatic dish washer that removes gold for me.
I despise washing dishes but doing it for the gold trim makes it worth while.

B.S.
Good luck and hope to see a nice shinny thing soon.

@ Dave: Actually, the copy in your link is the copy I downloaded in pdf format.

@ Harold: I'm not just looking into precious metal refining. I'd like to get involved with all around metal working. In my business, we work with a lot of cast aluminum, scrap copper, and stainless steel. Now, the stainless steel part is way down the road. But aluminum and copper are within my sights and would require large quantities to make it worthwhile. As far as the "need" to melt copper.... there is none. I just want to say that I did it and have a little ingot to show so. This venture is not really a way to make money. It's just something that I'm interested in.

@ Panther: I know Denver @ 222 and 76. My dad lives in New Providence. I pass by Denver all of the time. I know that I'll have to refine prior to melting, but I'm also looking at recasting aluminum for parts that my company can use. Also, I'm just trying to get a heads up right now. I'm not buying or building anything any time soon.

Gary - here are the pics of the two types of burner construction - in this post is the pics of the air injection type (using compressed air) (next post will be the self aspirating type burner)

The picture of the complete burner shows it in a vertical position - it actually enters the furnace horizontal - I turned it up right for taking the pics of the air input & gas input

The gas input is a 1/4 inch pipe running through the burner tube with a orifice hole drilled in it facing the furnace - not sure of size orifice hole needs to be

The orifice hole in the end cap of the air input looks to be about 1/16 or 3/32 inch

The air input pressure runs VERY low - I will post instructions for starting & adjusting air fuel mix if & when you decide to go with this design

Kurt