Not even new to this yet.

[kurtak]

This is the self aspirating burner & is by far the better design but is harder to make as it requires some real machining

Well worth have it done by a machine shop if you can't do it your self - any future furnace I buy or make will have this burner design

Kurt

 

[greyscout]

Thank you very much, Kurt. What do you think about this guy's design? http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/oliverburner1.html It's a little outdated, but it works and seems to be a simpler design. I don't want to seem lazy, but your design does seem a little intricate and the linked design is probably the cheapest solution. What do you think?

 

[butcher]

The burner in the link is a good little burner and would work for a small furnace, or several can be used in a forge, but for a larger furnace I would go with a larger burner, the burners are easy to build, there are many designs to choose from, depending on the size needed, the furnaces can also be fairly simple to build.

 

[kurtak]

Gary

I can't say how that burner would work - it clearly works well in the open air - but I have concerns on how well it would work in the furnace

My concern is that there is no way to control/adjust air/fuel mix

with both of my furnaces you have control over the air/fuel mix --- on the small furnace air is controlled by adjusting the compressed air pressure - on the big furnace air is controlled by adjusting the slide on the air intake slots - In my opinion - you need to have control over air/fuel mix to be trouble free in lighting the furnace - bringing furnace up to temp & running the furnace

Example - I can not even lite ether one of my furnaces if there is any air in the mix when lighting it - any air at all will blow the flame out - I have to turn on just the gas - lite it & let it burn for awhile (lid fully open) & let it warm up a bit inside the furnace before adding any air - other wise the flame blow out

Then as the furnace warms up you increase air along with closing the lid a little at a time as the furnace comes up to temp --- as you come up to full temp you reach a point where you can cut back on gas & increase air.

I could be wrong - but I see a problem in lighting & bringing the furnace up to temp without having control over both air & fuel

Its like lighting a gas/air torch - you start by lighting the gas & then turn on the air - trying to lite it with both gas & air turned on - it wont lite - once the gas is lit you add air & then adjust between gas & air till you reach desired temp (for cutting welding or brazing) --- get the air fuel mix wrong it blows the flame out & you start over

When you are trying to control a flame inside of a chamber (as opposed to in open air) having control over air/fuel mix is even more critical

That burner may work fine - its just my opinion that you want control of both air & gas though - & I don't see that on that burner

Kurt

 

[goldsilverpro]

I agree with Kurt. I can't imagine trying to use a gas furnace without total control of the air. For a blast furnace, which this essentially is, you need the "blast" of pressurized air.

 

[greyscout]

Roger that. I actually found Rex Price's website and was very interested in his burners. Kurt, it looks like your burner is very much like Rex's. Construction actually looks to be quite simple. I do a lot of engineering at work and I think I can make that burner happen. That being said, could you provide some specs? Specifically the self-aspirating burner. I know that there are several factors: pipe diameter and length, aspiration hole sizes, propane distribution, etc. I'm afraid that getting one thing wrong can make a significant difference in temperature and/or life/death?

 

[Harold_V]

Gary

I can't say how that burner would work - it clearly works well in the open air - but I have concerns on how well it would work in the furnace

My concern is that there is no way to control/adjust air/fuel mix

Not true. Air supply is adjusted by moving the sleeve towards the rear, covering up the slots.

Self aspirating burners can be quite good, although I do not pretend to judge this one.

My personal choice has always been a blower with a gate valve to control air flow. I'd not have it any other way. I used that system even on my tilting reverberatory furnace.



Harold

 

[kurtak]

Gary

I can't say how that burner would work - it clearly works well in the open air - but I have concerns on how well it would work in the furnace

My concern is that there is no way to control/adjust air/fuel mix

Not true. Air supply is adjusted by moving the sleeve towards the rear, covering up the slots.

Self aspirating burners can be quite good, although I do not pretend to judge this one.

My personal choice has always been a blower with a gate valve to control air flow. I'd not have it any other way. I used that system even on my tilting reverberatory furnace.


Harold

Harold

Correct as underlined in your above quote & as pictured (in this thread) for the burner that I use on my large furnace(pics provided by me) --- the burner in question (without air control) is one in the link to another web site that Gary provided

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

Roger that. I actually found Rex Price's website and was very interested in his burners. Kurt, it looks like your burner is very much like Rex's. Construction actually looks to be quite simple. I do a lot of engineering at work and I think I can make that burner happen. That being said, could you provide some specs? Specifically the self-aspirating burner. I know that there are several factors: pipe diameter and length, aspiration hole sizes, propane distribution, etc. I'm afraid that getting one thing wrong can make a significant difference in temperature and/or life/death?

Gary

You seem to be a handy adapt & over come kind of guy - there is no reason you couldn't build a self aspirating burner like the one I provided pics of with simple tools

Drill - angle grinder - files & tap & die set --- it might not look as fancy as mine but it would work as well ---

Gas feed - does not need the fancy nozzle like mine - it could be a simple pipe end cap with the right size orifice hole drilled in it - or hole drilled & tapped in the end cap to screw in a brass propane orifice fitting from a scraped out propane appliance

Same thing on the back of the burner pipe - use threaded pipe with pipe end cap - drill & tape to receive threaded gas feed pipe (may need to thread gas feed pipe a little more then thread from the store to get it to come through the back of end cap enough to make fuel line hook up)

Air intake slots in burner pipe - drill series of holes along a line of the length you want the slots to be - use angle grinder to cut metal out between holes & form slot - touch up with file

Slide slot - same thing

Drill & tape where set screws &/or studs are needed

That's what I would have done if I had time - I didn't have time so I paid to have mine made

As far as spec's (pipe size, slot size, etc.) that is going to depend on furnace chamber size which is going to be determined by crucible size & type you intend to run

Kurt

 

[butcher]

I have built many propane burners, some natural gas burners, and even an oil fired burner, being a boiler man burners, and the combustion of fuel, were one of the things I studied well, to get more of an understanding of how they were made and how they needed to operate efficiently.

I have made most all of the different burners you will find on the backyard metal casting web site, and several burners you will not find on the internet.

The Oliver upwind burner, it is a good little burner and can be made several ways, it does work well outside of a furnace with a flare, the flare is not needed when used in a small furnace, the Oliver upwind or other burners of this type of construction will also work well in a small furnace or in the small black smith forges. I did not have a problem controlling aspirated air, I tuned the burners air flow as it was built, and for its intended use, a simple sleeve can also be used to tune the burners.

Burners can be made many different ways, aspirated air, forced air, adjustable gas, adjustable air, or combinations of these, each design can have advantages and disadvantages.

 

[goldsilverpro]

This is what I used for natural gas. Very simple to build. I used it almost daily for about 4 years with no flashbacks. The gas input pipe ID was 1/2" for a #20 furnace. Read the whole thread. The same for propane except I used some smaller ID, fairly heavy-walled copper tubing for the gas input, maybe 5/16" or 3/8".
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=3222&p=76760&hilit=burner#p76760

 

[heliman4141]

@ Dave: Actually, the copy in your link is the copy I downloaded in pdf format.

@ Harold: I'm not just looking into precious metal refining. I'd like to get involved with all around metal working. In my business, we work with a lot of cast aluminum, scrap copper, and stainless steel. Now, the stainless steel part is way down the road. But aluminum and copper are within my sights and would require large quantities to make it worthwhile. As far as the "need" to melt copper.... there is none. I just want to say that I did it and have a little ingot to show so. This venture is not really a way to make money. It's just something that I'm interested in.

@ Panther: I know Denver @ 222 and 76. My dad lives in New Providence. I pass by Denver all of the time. I know that I'll have to refine prior to melting, but I'm also looking at recasting aluminum for parts that my company can use. Also, I'm just trying to get a heads up right now. I'm not buying or building anything any time soon.

Hello Gary,
Im a new refiner & when you said your venture is not really a way to make money thought id chime in as ive been doing this during good weather for 2 yrs. now & can safely assure you that you are correct ...LOL. You will not make any money at a small scale BUT you will learn a lot about patience & chemistry. That being said, besides reading Hokes book focus a LOT of your edu. twards reading fumes & safety & waste disposal. These last 3 are the real issues with refining period. A hood vent is nice but more is needed a LOT more, such as a scrubber, that too has to be maintained.

Just my .02 as I also have an Astronomy hobby is this: If I could go back in time id just work & buy my Gold in .999 bars & rounds & sell any marked jewelry & protect my health in that fashion. After 2 yrs. of doing this I can very safely say unless you live way out away from anyone isolated that you need a heated shed/garage, hood vent, scrubber, and a LOT of cheap to access material to refine otherwise its a loosing business from a time ( LOTS of spare time) & money investment. And the danger isn't worth any Gold you might get unless you are setup as I said.

Like you I also didn't intend to get rich doing this, just wanted to learn about it & try my hands at it, which I have. I still have a mountain to learn but one thing that I have learned & am learning is that refining is oh so very noxious from start to finish. I just had new neighbors move into the home next door that was unoccupied last 2 yrs. & they have 4 kids so at this point im pretty much concluding on selling all my gallons of lab grade nitric & all my materials & playing it safe just going to work & buying refined Gold & just scrapping & selling that occasionally, that for me & the new neighbors the only safe avenue since I am not willing to spend 10 grand to make 2 grand etc.. & learn something anymore as its no longer a safe venture without a shop now.

Its a bad move as the others said to sell marked Gold or Silver since its already obvious a certain carat. I have a tidy amount of 14K that im sitting on to eventually sell if the market goes up but id never ever melt it & destroy that tested & marked assay. If I was in your position id go one of two options IE: Hang onto your Gold & Silver & watch the markets or sell it & be safe with your health unless you plan on a full blown lab type setup period.

I can tell you the elimination of acid wastes is as time consuming as the proper refining is. And you risk serious issues if any neighbors call & involve the EPA unless your completly setup like a lab & can prove it. Im very seriously considering getting out from this once ive completly cleaned up my 5 gallons of waste & going the cheap safe rout. I work so much anyway that its actually 10 times cheaper for me to just buy refined Gold then to do this, so ive learned a bit & now I know its not a money maker at my small level. The gentlemen that are answering your questions are not newbees thay are all fairly old members with serious equipment investments & they do or did fairly large portions of material stock, you have to as its so time consuming or its not worth the time effort.

Read about every aspect & how long it takes to "properly" do it correctly, with no short cuts to get at least 99.50 or better Gold. I just want to you to see the dark side of this endevour, fumes & waste removal safely. If it was just nuke with acid, wash, & melt then everyone would be happily doing it, but its ....far ....far from that easy...................... :|

Just something to really sit down & consider before attempting is all im saying. Storage of all the acids and wastes is another BIG issue. What if you have a power outage during a fuming venture? Do you have a backup genetaror? Backups on everything for that & spills is importaint. Don't do a thing till you have read everything about all this then & only then decide if its worth all the equipment. Especially consider any close neighbors...............................

I hate to be a downer but ive been tossing & turning at night over all this as I live in a small residentail neighborhood & so far long as I keep batches small as has gone well but fumes are fumes & do escape. And its bothering me big time & im not willing to throw good money after bad just to make a few more Gold nuggets that I could buy with a LOT less effort & safely. These new neighbors just are the final decision maker for me.

Now IF I lived out in the country with no neighbors, & had all the usual lab quality safety devices & backups, AND most of all... a good access of cheap refining material heck yea id do it...............So im not all negative, but remember..... consider circumstances of your location & neighbors first, then read everything possible if your in a safe isolated area & you can then proceed if your up to a new challenge.

Dave

 

[greyscout]

Dave:

Thank you for your thorough reply. I haven't forgotten about this venture; I've been very busy at work and won't get back to this until this Fall/Winter. Your description of your experience is very helpful. I will likely avoid refining and limit my self to the casting of parts for my company with Aluminum, then see if I want to move up to Stainless and that whole fiasco. Thanks again.

 

[Harold_V]

Dave:

Thank you for your thorough reply. I haven't forgotten about this venture; I've been very busy at work and won't get back to this until this Fall/Winter. Your description of your experience is very helpful. I will likely avoid refining and limit my self to the casting of parts for my company with Aluminum, then see if I want to move up to Stainless and that whole fiasco. Thanks again.

A move up to stainless is a monumental jump, as it most likely will require an induction furnace.

One can not melt steel or stainless in a gas fired crucible furnace, where even melting gray iron is difficult.

Harold