a refining idea

[butcher]

troymoore4,
You really are not learning anything with the way you are going about it now, with these random questions, even if we tried to answer them, at best each of us could spend hours typing answers that would only give you a very small portion of the whole answer, to get a better answer to your questions it takes research, in that research you will not only find the answers to that question, but information you never would think of to ask.
At best now the most we can give you is a simple answer to questions that can take books full of information to get a good understanding of.

Stop cheating yourself out of that valuable education, spend your time getting that valuable education through research of this great resource we call the forum.

Forum members will be glad to help answer your questions if they can, if you study, but without you doing research on your own, it would be difficult for us to answer those questions, you would only get a small portion of the answer, and you really would not have much understanding of the answers anyway.
When you do the research you gain an understanding, and have a background of information, so the simple answers to your questions become extremely helpful in your research.

I know nothing about biological chemistry, or medical sciences, if I joined a group of doctors and scientist in that field, and started asking question off the top of my head, not only would it be difficult for them to answer many of my questions, because I have no understanding of the chemistry or science, but they could also not spend years to explain (or educate me) with all of the background information I would need to get an true understanding or decent answer to my random questions.
And then I would also have a very hard time understanding their answers any way.

For me to learn I would have to do my own research, get some background understanding, then perhaps I could ask intelligent questions, having some understanding of the language, and background information, so they could better help me to progress in my education in that science.

 

[Harold_V]

While I am the first to admit there's is much I don't know, I do know that if you want the answers you have to ask the questions.

I question if you understand how fortunate you are to not be dealing with me. Those who know of my lack of patience with readers who share your attitude most likely understand that I would have shut you down by now.

Here, you do not ask questions when you don't understand the answers. You are advised to read. Read Hoke's book, and read the board. Read them until you understand the required procedures. Only then should you start asking questions, which will reflect the fact that you have done so.

Should you fail to heed this advise, your time here will be short. Very short, indeed.

If you choose to respond to my comments, weigh your words well.

Harold

 

[Geo]

The purest gold crystals are form by evaporating gold in a plasma stream and condensing it on a "target". The target is usually purified gold crystal to begin with. The process is called "sputtering".
As far as the question of boiling gold to remove impurities, you have to keep in mind that when you melt all these metals together, it forms an alloy. Once metals are alloyed, it changes the properties of the whole mass. Melting temperatures change. Boiling points change. When dealing with electronics, it may include many different metals including semi-precious and toxic heavy metals and even exotic materials. It is not something that can be done by a hobbyist refiner.

 

[g_axelsson]

Sputtering is not the same process as evaporating, it is using a plasma and knocking off small pieces of a material from a target to transfer it to an object, often to form a thin film.
It is possible to sputter alloys of very different metals, so this is not a refining method. Just look at the number of different alloys that can be sputtered.
https://www.americanelements.com/sputtering-targets.html

I have been looking for a cheap sputter for my electron microscope, so far I only have an evaporator... yeah, it can actually boil gold or carbon that deposits onto an object to make it conductive so I can watch it in my microscope.

Göran

 

[Geo]

Ooops, sorry about that. When I reached for the name of what I was thinking, that's the first name that popped into my head. The name of what I'm talking about was spoke of in another topic on the forum but I don't know where it is.

 

[NobleMetalWorks]

Sputtering is not the same process as evaporating, it is using a plasma and knocking off small pieces of a material from a target to transfer it to an object, often to form a thin film.
It is possible to sputter alloys of very different metals, so this is not a refining method. Just look at the number of different alloys that can be sputtered.
https://www.americanelements.com/sputtering-targets.html

I have been looking for a cheap sputter for my electron microscope, so far I only have an evaporator... yeah, it can actually boil gold or carbon that deposits onto an object to make it conductive so I can watch it in my microscope.

Göran

Sputtering target? I know a remarketer that gets them from time to time, he operates in Silicon Valley. What are you looking for? I have seen mostly big ones, last one a few months ago was a fairly big Pt target.

 

[g_axelsson]

I'm not looking for a target (unless for refining :mrgreen: ) but a bench top sputter for a cheap price. Some times I browse the LabX site but it's been a while now.
The target I need is anything that works for electron microscopy, Au, Pt, Pt/Ir... noble metals basically. Targets are consumables and I feel confident that I can fabricate a target if I need it.

A big sputter would be too expensive to transport from the USA but if it fits inside a parcel then it's interesting.

The lab I got the evaporator from (free, just picking it up) contained a few extra bits. Among them a Pt target but they had already got rid of the sputter a couple of years before.

I have my eyes on a sputter at the local university, just waiting for the lab to realize they never use it any longer. But that may take several years. I got some cool equipment from them last summer though, 100A +/- 10V power supply for example.

Göran

 

[troymoore4]

While I am the first to admit there's is much I don't know, I do know that if you want the answers you have to ask the questions.

I question if you understand how fortunate you are to not be dealing with me. Those who know of my lack of patience with readers who share your attitude most likely understand that I would have shut you down by now.

Here, you do not ask questions when you don't understand the answers. You are advised to read. Read Hoke's book, and read the board. Read them until you understand the required procedures. Only then should you start asking questions, which will reflect the fact that you have done so.

Should you fail to heed this advise, your time here will be short. Very short, indeed.

If you choose to respond to my comments, weigh your words well.

Harold

I must say that if you have a lack of patience that perhaps YOU have the problems. I understand things likey a bit more than you seem to expect. I understand the need for patience and proper proceedures. The processes used are quite dangerous, yes i understand that to. I haveva healthy anount of respect for the high temps and/or the corrosive and caustic chemecals that will be needed. I have ABSOLUTELY NO desire to injue someone or be injured myself so i ask questions because the answers give me more knowledge and knowledge is a key factor in any of this. I look at it from the standpoint of gaining as much knowledge as I can so that when I do start I will not make a complete moronic ass of myself. If you dissagee with/disslike me for this then perhaps you should think back to how much you knew when you first ventured into this. Nobody starts knowing everything and nobody is without their mistakes, especially when they first start something new. So if you wish to begrudge someone who only wants to have a firm as possible before they begin, then maybe you should remember when you were asking questions of those whom had more experience than you did when you first started in this. I'd rather ask what might be a dumb question and have that knowledge that to experiment with it and have it blow up in my face causing injury to myself or someone else, so you can express your displeasure all you like, I'm still going to ask questions whether they are dumb or not.

 

[NobleMetalWorks]

I must say that if you have a lack of patience that perhaps YOU have the problems. I understand things likey a bit more than you seem to expect. I understand the need for patience and proper proceedures. The processes used are quite dangerous, yes i understand that to. I haveva healthy anount of respect for the high temps and/or the corrosive and caustic chemecals that will be needed. I have ABSOLUTELY NO desire to injue someone or be injured myself so i ask questions because the answers give me more knowledge and knowledge is a key factor in any of this. I look at it from the standpoint of gaining as much knowledge as I can so that when I do start I will not make a complete moronic ass of myself. If you dissagee with/disslike me for this then perhaps you should think back to how much you knew when you first ventured into this. Nobody starts knowing everything and nobody is without their mistakes, especially when they first start something new. So if you wish to begrudge someone who only wants to have a firm as possible before they begin, then maybe you should remember when you were asking questions of those whom had more experience than you did when you first started in this. I'd rather ask what might be a dumb question and have that knowledge that to experiment with it and have it blow up in my face causing injury to myself or someone else, so you can express your displeasure all you like, I'm still going to ask questions whether they are dumb or not.

I think perhaps you would have done better to first look at Harold's previous posts, which could have been accomplished by simply searching the forum. I don't feel I need to defend Harold as his posts, and his answers in topic discussions speak for themselves. If you would simply have read them however, you would soon realize that Harold happens to be one of those people who seem to me at least, to learn on his on with little or no help other than the books he read, and the familiarity he gained by doing as those books suggested.

If you knew about the history of refining in the United States, or the history of precious metals and those laws that used to be in place that prevented people from refining, legally, you might gain a better understanding of the time period Harold learned his trade craft, and have more respect for him prior to speaking on a subject you are obviously not aware of.

There are many others like Harold on this forum, not exactly, but who have also researched and learned on their own and then proceeded carefully with little or no help and yet have also been very successful in doing so.

I don't believe anyone who has posted on this thread has suggested that you shouldn't ask questions, even those you might think asking are dumb. Contrary to how you seem to be portraying the advice on this thread, we as a forum have been consistent in suggesting that you might serve your intent far better by first searching for the answers you seek, rather than acting as if entitled to answers to all that might capture your fancy at the time. Asking questions about processes you know nothing about, have absolutely no experience in, do not understand the terminology of only serves to expose your lack of base understanding. Doing as suggested however will empower you, lead you to the right answers without posting every whimsical imaginative thought that pops into your mind. You will understand the terms used, which will allow those who wish to help you explain things in the common way we do, and you will have a far more clear understanding of what the information being imparted, for your benefit.

I think you miss the fact that many of the people who have attempted to help you already are not paid for their help, they are not rewarded in any way except the satisfaction that might be had by helping someone understand these things better. They are not required to help you but do so out of an interest to help others, which is what this forum is about, refiners helping refiners. You are not entitled to answers contrary to how you seem to think. You have been told, consistently, several times now that you should do certain things prior to asking questions and yet still defend your belief that you should be able to willy nilly ask any question that pops into your mind. The very most important thing you can do is to follow the rules of the forum and the direction of those that know far more, and the direction of the moderators who have been entrusted to ensure that this is a repository of knowledge and help on this forum is not tainted by these types of posts, nor misinformation propagated by those who do not know or understand the procedures, processes, chemistry etc that are involved in recovering and refining, not imaginative speculation by someone who doesn't even understand the proper terminology to communicate effectively in this field.

I am not sure you will be on this forum long enough to read this, but I hope you do and understand that you have created a situation where it seems very likely to me you will soon enough, be removed from this forum and not able to interact with the very people you should be grateful you have access to if your true intent is to understand what we do here better. I am currently under the opinion that you have yet to discover how truly rare this forum is, and how incredibly important this resource is in regards to recovering and refining precious metals. I think that if you did, you would choose more carefully what you say and how you communicate, and instead of disregarding suggestions intended to help you more than you seem to understand, appreciate them and follow the good solid advice some of the best people on this forum have offered you.

I hope you do learn, and recover from your previous statements, I hope you show more appreciation for this very special and unusual forum and it's members. I wish you the very best of luck regardless of your bad behavior and more importantly, hope you don't make a terrible mistake because you attempted something that was so far outside the way it should be done, that it causes you or someone else harm.

Scott

 

[Harold_V]

I must say that if you have a lack of patience that perhaps YOU have the problems.

Big mistake. That, in my estimation, is not weighing one's words well.
Here, you are expected to follow the rules of the board. One of them is that you will not post questions until you understand the answers. You will read and study, as you have been advised, so you are capable of having a constructive discussion with those who are willing to help you. You appear to me to be of the opinion that you are exempt, although I may be wrong.

I am not willing to debate points with you. You had fair warning that you are not free to come here and shoot off your mouth. I got the message. You think of yourself as clever. I have no obligation to tolerate such behavior, and I won't.

Scott's reply to you was everything you should have understood before posting your reply. That you don't seem to "get it" is unfortunate, as you are not going to remain a registered reader on this board. If you return under a different registration, I will ban you again, and I will report you to your ISP as being a troublemaker.

In life, one must learn certain lessons. One of them is to not bite the hand that feeds you.

Harold

 

[mls26cwru]

I'm not looking for a target (unless for refining :mrgreen: ) but a bench top sputter for a cheap price. Some times I browse the LabX site but it's been a while now.
The target I need is anything that works for electron microscopy, Au, Pt, Pt/Ir... noble metals basically. Targets are consumables and I feel confident that I can fabricate a target if I need it.

A big sputter would be too expensive to transport from the USA but if it fits inside a parcel then it's interesting.

The lab I got the evaporator from (free, just picking it up) contained a few extra bits. Among them a Pt target but they had already got rid of the sputter a couple of years before.

I have my eyes on a sputter at the local university, just waiting for the lab to realize they never use it any longer. But that may take several years. I got some cool equipment from them last summer though, 100A +/- 10V power supply for example.

Göran

This is the kind of stuff I do everyday at work... We do thin-film optical coatings (PVD for infrared optics & PECVD for infrared DLC coating) and some DLC on metallic substrates as well. I would think that any vacuum chamber could be modified to generate plasma. Ours are small, but a bit more than just bench top. For optical coatings, you need to draw a pretty serious vacuum (1.0 x 10^(-5)torr) so our machines include a mechanical pump in series with a turbo-molecular pump. On the electronics side, you need an RF power generator with a coupled matching unit... in addition to all the gas flow controllers and gauges and water cooling.

I am not sure how small some of these systems get, but I would imagine it could be shrunk to fit on a tabletop... that would be interesting to see I am sure that for certain applications you could drop the turbo-pump as well. Then you would really be looking at small system.

Sorry, I may have gotten a bit excited... its not everyday that someone talks about the stuff I do at work I am by no means a physicist, but if you have any questions, I can try my best to answer them

 

[g_axelsson]

I am not sure how small some of these systems get, but I would imagine it could be shrunk to fit on a tabletop... that would be interesting to see I am sure that for certain applications you could drop the turbo-pump as well. Then you would really be looking at small system.

Sorry, I may have gotten a bit excited... its not everyday that someone talks about the stuff I do at work I am by no means a physicist, but if you have any questions, I can try my best to answer them

Something like this one... http://dentonvacuum.com/products/desktop-v-hp

At 23" and 58 kg it's bigger than the system at the university. That one is small enough that I would be able to just pick it up without problem and walk away with it.

It's more like this smaller system, a 33 cm high and 34 cm wide unit, weighing only 20 kilo.
https://www.quorumtech.com/quorum-product/sc7620-mini-sputter-coaterglow-discharge-system

My carbon evaporator on the other hand is a 200 kilo machine with a 25-30 cm (10-12") bell jar with transformers, rough vacuum pump and an oil diffusion pump to create the high vacuum needed hidden away in the cabinet below the bell jar.
Not mine, but this is how it looks... http://www.technicalsalessolutions.com/uploaded/t520317799.jpg

This is fun technology, the reason I got involved in it as a hobby. :mrgreen:

Göran

 

[mls26cwru]

holy crap those units are small!! I can see where you would want something like that for the small sample sizes for an electron microscope though

My deposition chambers are huge compared to those... they have a 14" electrode alone. Our larger chamber for E-beam evaporation has five 12" platters! both have a host of equipment and cables that would make your head spin

I have two systems that I run and maintain... every 6 months I have to tear one of them apart to the bolts for an annual cleaning... it amazing the amount of things that go into those systems. Its quite the hobby to get into

 

[g_axelsson]

My big TEM is 1,8 tons of steel and electronics and takes samples up to 5 mm in diameter and 100 nm thick... maximum!
http://www.home.neab.net/gandalf/EM-lab/TEM100CX/

Two people can take it apart enough in a day to pack it on pallets and move it. It takes three pallets with the big parts and two full cars with all the loose bits to move.

Göran

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

I must say that if you have a lack of patience that perhaps YOU have the problems.

I know this guy got banned already.. But, as a refining rookie myself, i hope other new people actually see this, to realize a couple key aspects of this community. I doubt the people i truly want to read this, though, actually do..because they are the ones who all get gold fever this time of year flooding the boards with idiocy... Thinking that the professionals have just blatantly been missing this mysterious and elusive, yet magical technique... ALL THESE YEARS, BETWEEN ALL THESE MINDS.. Or they want spoon fed.. Or given the keynotes and thats it... Sorry, but that isnt how this works, or how anything should.. You going to take a flight and go up to the crew and say "hey...so, your fuel works...but, i got this old newspaper i put in a blender with some cat piss and kerosene... Youtube said it would work, so, Im just letting you know that THAT is how it should and will be done on my flight..MMMKAY?"...

I read this forum for 5 months before i joined, and that was just so i could view picture attachments, as i had got a pdf copy of hoke from an acquaintance. I didn't post anything, until i was contributing. ...it wasnt much, but still better than keeping my hands help open.. And whenever sustenance is given, your cup suddenly becomes full and what you so eagerly wanted is tossed out.. Read Hoke..

Read Hoke....just do it... Because one day, you new people will not only give us rookie refiners a bad rap, indefinitely.. But you will get registration closed... Or pro's leaving bc we are beyond help.. Or have sooo much stupid stuff on the boards, that maybe 1 day out of 3, something of substance MIGHT be posted..

READ HOKE

SHE TAUGHT ME EVERYTHING I WANTED TO KNOW AND MORE...SERIOUSLY NEW GUYS READ HER WONDERFUL WORK. I initially got in both feet first, and landed in waist high quicksand mixed with b.s. from youtube.. I am not an idiot, so i quickly picked up on the fact, that, this is a science, ...its a discipline... Its an art.. And its a puzzle. One you must be knowledgable and apt enough to solve yourself...as EVERY lot refined is different.

Every new person that comes on board, should be thanking their holy stars that this forum is open registration.. And doesnt have a membership fee... Or ANY OTHER FORCED PREREQUISITES...it is just simply asked that you read a few guides, a book or two, glance at some pdfs, do acquaintance experiments, GET FAMILIAR with whats what... So the people who have been doing this for ages, ARENT, explaining to you for the trillionth time, why you need to incinerate, or not, or why you heat and dont boil, or ANY of the TRILLION other idiosyncrasies and nuances of this profession/hobby.

You being here is a privilege.

Point.blank.period.

So, why would anyone disrespect the members here by not doing the few things so easily asked of you?

Why are you even here? TRULY here? To join a community of brilliant men, who will borderline give away proprietary trade secrets?... I literally have 6 notebooks FILLED with superb notes from our fearless (take-no-gruff) leaders... Specifically, the threads where the pro's are talking to one another and not to idiots like me. Its beyond beautiful... And

1. This is not a chat room.. I am a child of the technology age.. I grew up playing computer games.. (they were just words though... So, maybe the techno-era needs more subdivisions...i sure didnt have a tablet at 3 years old like my son does..) But, even being apart of your stupid generation (sortof), we are a different breed...as i want to have the knowledge myself, so i can successfully share it to those who truly seek wisdom...

2. See #1...this isnt a chat room... Think of it more as a living library for refining, that is constantly evolving... Stop mucking up its gene pool..

3. Lose the entitlement... If you are wrong in a post, and corrected... Dont get pissy, SAY THANK YOU...for without that insight, you would undoubtedly be stuck in limbo,...probably even unable to even tie your shoes correctly.

4.do actual research... Not because you have to fix an error, but because you want to know how to prevent one, or stear clear of one.

5.give back... I mentioned this being a community earlier... Not very many communities succeed if everyone doesnt play their part.


Im sorry for the long winded reply to a banned guy... But, this kind of riff raff is very disruptive for those of us here to actually learn this coveted craft.

I usually just close out the window and go on to the next thread, but, the microscope peaked my interest. So, sorry to fill it with more trash... But, heres a good tip for new people...

When you go to google in the search bar type this (verbatim minus "s..obviously...)

"Site:www.goldrefiningforum.com xxxxxxxx" (replace the xxxxx with whatever retarded question you may have.. It will search JUST this site.. IT HELPS because the advanced search up top can get messy...Why you mught ask?...THATS IT RIGHT THERE....YOU ASKING...and asking...and asking... )

Again... Sorry for that.. But, for the love of all that is holy... Do YOUR due diligence...

GET EDUCATED


you are giving all of us new people a bad name..

 

[blackwolf365]

what ever happened to that guy? he still banned?

 

[anachronism]

what ever happened to that guy? he still banned?

Don't know, don't care. More important things to think about.

Jon

 

[nickvc]

Oh yes he’s still banned.
If you read the whole thread it shows the attitude of the active forum members, we advise everyone to read and study so stupid questions don’t keep been asked and answers when given are understood, no one here is paid to answer questions so if members patience wears thin then you will get no help or very short pointed answers that you may not appreciate.
There is more information here, from some of the worlds best recovery and refining experts, than you could read in a year and the best news is it’s free, all you have to do is read and study to access all that knowledge.