advice?

[Harvester3]

Thanks you all,
Butcher, if I used the acid/bleach idea, assuming the gold is mostly in a lump attached to the ladle, how fast would it dissolve? I'm not too concerned about the ladle, although it's a pretty neat old piece.
Would sulphuric react with the iron slowly enough to use the electrolysis system as you described?
BTW, what's a "litharge flux"?
Thanks again

 

[Harvester3]

also, as I don't have a furnace built just now, I'm using a torch and melting dish/crucible. Might make a difference.

 

[butcher]

litharge or lead oxide is used in flux to almagam with gold and silver, usually used in assaying to collect the gold into a button of lead, the base metals go into the melted crushed glass as usually a brown red slag, the borax helps as flux and to help keep it to a pourable mix (liquid when hot), the flour can help base metals from oxides burning off as carbon dioxide, the washing soda helps keep alkaline, this may work to collect the values but temperatures will be the deciding factor, because you will need to get the flux hot enough to melt but not melt the cast iron, maybe bury bottom of spoon of laddle in sand and heat excess flux with torch till glass melts trying to cncentrate heat on flux, not laddle stirring and scratching bottom with stick or carbon, till cast iron red hot but not melting pouring off to flux letting cool, crush glass flux watching for bead of lead cuple the lead button in bone ash cuple to recover gold button. like I said only something to ponder.
cast iron with high silicone content in older times was used to distill concentrated sulfuric or concentrated nitric acid, the weaker dilute acid apparently attacks it more than concentrated acids.
also usually cast iron laddles have a heavy oxidized coating so maybe your metals are just stuck to this coating and not actually almagamed with iron, this oxidized coating and your gold may be able to be removed saving the tool, someone mentioned dremel tool.
with Hcl/bleach it will take surface of gold off pretty quick off glass gold items, brush helps, also high bleach oxidixer, but only surface layer each brushing, so if gold was thick this might not be best choice, but if fine layer it maybe,
electrolisis in concentrated sulfuric, maybe copper cathode and only using inner cup of laddle to hold acid, the iron as anode may work good as surface iron will also try to plate to cathode cleaning laddle, also if after gold is removed the iron could be retored by electrolisis,
http://www.rustyiron.com/engines/electrolysis/index.html
http://www.rutherfordcountyboys.50megs.com/custom4.html
sometimes you look at your options, what you have and try and decide the best approach to try
I was just spouting ideas to things (edit : to think ) about.

 

[Platdigger]

Butcher, you said........"the flour can help base metals from oxides burning off as carbon dioxide"

I thought the reason for flour, or any carbon for that mater, was to reduce.....not oxidize.

Thus the carbon dioxide.......taking oxygen from the mix.
Randy

 

[butcher]

the flour is carbon source, the oxygen and carbon combine to make CO2 gas, removing oxygen from melt that can combine with metals to oxidize them (like removing oxygen that would cause rust)if you did not have carbon source.
I dont know if I am explain this properly or not?
(charcoal can work similar)
some metals will not melt together if you do not add carbon, the melt will burn or oxidize them(like rust them), but with carbon they will melt to metals, the carbon takes away the oxygen from melt making CO2 gas.

Platdigger maybe you can explain this to where it makes sense, I have a hard time with it.

 

[Harvester3]

Ok, so I do or don't add a carbon to the flux? I do want it to melt to the lead or silver, I don't want it to stick even harder to the iron ladle.
I do appreciate the help with my boneheaded mistake. I'd almost forgotten about it, and was slow to publish how stupid I was...
Thanks

 

[qst42know]

The carbon source is beneficial if you start with litharge. It reduces lead oxide to metallic lead by forming carbon dioxide. It will clean other oxides as well. Clean metals combine quicker than oxides.

This is not a job for a small torch. Oxy/acetylene would be best. You can also use the torch to wash as much of the material out as possible.

If you can before you add the lead or silver, heat the ladle quickly to a red heat invert and knock as much of the material out into an old iron skillet.

 

[goldsilverpro]

Were it me, I would never use a torch on lead. I want to see my great-grandchildren.

 

[Harvester3]

OK, you got my attention. What's up with using a torch on lead?

 

[butcher]

lead fumes toxic and accumulate in body, just dont stick your nose in it you wont die tommorow, should be done with this in mind, out side with breeze.

 

[goldsilverpro]

It's so easy to use a too hot torch. Lead is one of the easiest metals to evaporate. Lead fumes are very toxic. I'm as gutsy as anyone on the forum. I just try to eliminate stupidity.

 

[Harold_V]

If you've ever converted lead to litharge, you'd understand the caution about fumes. I did that very thing a few times, always working in my fume hood. It's hard to imaging the volume of white smoke that comes from so little lead. It would be difficult to avoid without a fume hood, even with a stiff breeze at your back.

Harold

 

[Platdigger]

If he uses a carbonizing flame, and not an oxidizing one, he should not have much lead going to letharge. Still gonna want some type of fume exaust.

At least the ladle could be mostly cleaned off with the torch method.
Then I supose if you have a big cupell............could allways throw the lead in that, and cupell it.
Randy

 

[Harvester3]

Thanks you all.
So, how about a quick tutorial on carbonizing vs oxidizing flames?
I haven't done anything to the ladle yet...

 

[butcher]

oxidizing flame is hotter more oxygen, nice clean blue tip at torch.
http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14250/img/14250_88_1.jpg