Am I doing this right?

[markymark]

Hi all,

So I made a couple posts back in November when I just got started as a gold-buyer. After that, I had obtained a license and an EIN number. I've been mailing in all my gold to a refiner (I won't name any names). Everything had been going smoothly. I sent them a package every week and every week I got a check. The first payout was the best payout. Every subsequent payout was a little less than the one before. Today was the last straw. They paid me $4,169 on 48.0 dwt 10k, 64.2 dwt 14k, and 2.945 dwt 18k, which was locked in at a price of $1605/ozt. It was all karat jewelry. I have an itemized list of every single piece I sent, with pictures of everything. Everything was double-tested with acid, magnet, and electronic touchstone. Everything looked and felt like it was supposed to be.
They're only returning to me 0.2 dwt of junk and 0.6 dwt of stones. I asked them why it was so low. They said that the 14k was underkarat. I understand that most jewelry is a little underkarat but was all the 14k, from 30 different customers, an average of 2 whole karats under? That's ludacris. Their reply was "it is what it is". Anyhow, I'll never do business with those people again...

So, in response to what happened today, I've decided to take a new approach to selling my gold. I found a post by 4metals on how to properly represent my lots so that things like what happened today don't happen again. I'm going to do my own melting and assaying and have my own test samples to compare with the refiner's. I'm going to sell it to a local refiner in the Chicago area, seeing everything done in front of me. Around here there's Sipi, Horizon, Mid-States, and NTR.
I ordered a Hardin-426 furnace. It says it comes with the crucible and I'm hoping it comes with the tongs too. I also ordered a graphite stirring rod, safety gloves, borax, and a 10oz mould.
A couple questions...Do I actually have to do the assaying myself? Or should I have an independent 3rd party do the assaying?

Another problem I have is all the melee diamonds that I currently possess. When I was dealing with said refiner mentioned above, they did all the stone removal for me. A lot of times, I would buy gold from people at the expected melt value but get their diamonds for free. I currently have about 10 carats tw. Some of the pieces are actually nice (engagement rings and the like) I could just sell some of those on eBay and get a decent price, even with the fees. With a lot of the stuff however, I'm just going to attempt to do the removal by hand. I ordered some prong pullers and jewelers pliers. But there's gotta be a better way of doing this. Maybe there's someone on here who'll buy my diamond jewelry outright.

I'd much appreciate your advice.

 

[nickvc]

Melting your own bars is a must in my opinion...you could just take a dip sample from your molten metal or drill the bar top and bottom twice at least on both sides and in different locations. The assay sample can be kept for use if you disagree with the result the refiner gives you or sent in to constantly check them, my advice is to send them in at least the first few times and if your getting good results only send them in occasionally afterwards. Doing your own assays is possible but third party assays are good as they have no connection to either party so are totally indepedant. The cost in the US isn't cheap like here in the UK and they are quick here also, a gold and silver assay is $20 approximately and you get a result in 24 hours maximum, I can give you contact details if you want them for the lads I use. With bars you can get paid the silver content or negotiate a better return on the gold and ignore the silver dependant on quantity, there is a lot of competition for gold so look around.
Keep all your used flux as they will contain values which can be recovered later. With your stone set jewellery I'd suggest cutting the shanks off as close as possible to the settings and saving up until you have a decent amount then either do them yourself through AR or find a member to do them for you we have many capable on the forum, one piece of advice put the heads through an ultrasonic as the settings can hold a lot of dirt and dead skin which add up and will skew your expected returns.

 

[kgegold]

Perhaps you should inform the other gold buyers on this forum as to who this refiner is so we can avoid future dealings as well.

 

[4metals]

Nick

How much sample do assayers on your side of the pond require? Do they return unused samples? Do they return the coronets? I am just trying to make a fair comparison as to what assayers here charge vs the assayers in the UK.

I'm not saying assayers here are more costly or am I saying assayers in the UK are less costly. I would just like to get all of the facts and compare.

I guess you could say that's what this forum is known for. Unbiased truth!

 

[Westerngs]

Another thing to consider is whether the assay being performed is single analysis or more than one replicate and the average reported. Obviously the more replicates, the more sample consumed, the more work involved and the higher the cost.

I know of some labs that do single determinations. I have never liked the idea because it makes it impossible to know if you have made a mistake. After all, no one is perfect and mistakes do happen.

Proof corrected? Costs go up, but definitely a must.

 

[4metals]

Good point!

The labs I work with run a minimum of 2 cupels for gold on smaller bars and larger bars get 3 cupels. A fourth if the customer wants silver by difference.

Plus they run proofs for every furnace lot and report proof corrected fire assay results.

 

[nickvc]

The assayers here ask for 1/2 gram for a single element around 1-2 grams for gold and PGMs and the coronets are returned if your doing regular business with them. When I worked at the Assay Office again only small amounts of sample were taken especially off finished goods but larger samples were required if items were suspect.

 

[4metals]

Here in the US a single fire assay requires a minimum of 1 gram because they run 2 cups. The coronets are generally not returned unless you are a big customer. A client shipping a few assays a week usually pays $25-$30 for gold only and $50 for gold and silver without having the coronets returned. So for a 14 karat sample assay which you provide a gram sample (leaving no room for redo due to error) it actually costs you $30 in retained gold and $25-$30 for the assay fee. So all told you pay $55-$60 in the states for a gold only assay ona 1 gram sample.

They do gold and silver for $20 on a half gram sample in the UK and return the sample? I would doubt a lab could afford to run proofs and pay a skilled assayer for that price. The consumables for the assay combined with the haz mat fees for the lead adsorbed cupels has to eat up a few dollars per sample as well. Then there's the proof silver value as well.

I wonder what overnight shipping to the UK costs?

 

[kurt]

Mark

I have heard nothing but good reports from people I know that send gold to Horizon & Mid States every week or every 2 weeks - the only thing I know about Sipi is from people that have sent in ciruit boards & they were happy with the results - concerning NTR - the same people that have nothing but good to say about Horizin & Mid States have told me they had the same experience you have had when they delt with NTR (started good then went bad)

If you did your own assays that would be good for you to know what you have - but I believe you would still need to have a sample taken from what you send in to be sent to a third party certified assayer to hold validity if you have a dispute with the refiner you send your lot to

At least thats how I have heard it works - I don't really know as I do my own refining & I have buyers that buy at spot plus from me so I have never sent any gold or silver to another refiner (I don't sell anything that reads less then 99.98 after 450 seconds on my XRF)

Hope that helps

Kurt

Kurt

 

[samuel-a]

I feel almost embberest to say, but i get here 10$ for gold fire assay.
And 10$ for silver titration.
Both are returned.

On the other hand, no one assay pgm here.

 

[4metals]

Samuel,

Come to New York, you can get tons of work at that price! But the first time you have to pay rent in NY you may realize why they charge more.

Why do you choose to titrate the silver over cupellation?

You do use cupellation for silver in a gold assay don't you?

 

[samuel-a]

Sorry 4metals
Perhaps i misspelled. I'm not doing the assays.

The few assayers around here are in though competition with each other.
Though, Only large clients get the luxury to get paid for silver in their karat scrap. so then they fire assay both for au and ag.

Silver clients, get titration assay only, from all assayers. why? I suppose to reduce costs.
The price for low cost is is the "delivery", i can find my self sometimes waiting few days for results until they collect enough samples to run together.

 

[Westerngs]

In the past, I have dealt with 2 labs in the UK, and both have used potentiometric titrations.

When you have a large sample load, titrations are a much faster and cheaper way to assay for silver. They are also extremely accurate, much more so than proof corrected fire assay in my opinion.

Of course, in karat gold, fire assay for silver is the way to go. Although, many years ago I ran across a study where a large company (Degussa maybe?) was doing karat gold assays for both gold and silver via ICP. Quite successfully supposedly. I will try to find the paper, but this was probably about 15 years ago so I'm not sure I can find it.