Non-Chemical amrit, ishor etc. are they really no good?

[mgraff77]

First and foremost, I amazed at what you can learn on this website. The moderators and general members are extremely impressive with their knowledge (Harold V, Oz, Butcher, Palladium to name a few). Reminds me of a site I used to visit in college; al7bar.tk fta web site. I commend those of you who make a valiant effort to maintain your patience with the newbies and greenhorns, like myself, posting mondain question after question. I have tried to do my due diligence and read as much as possible before posting these questions.

I am 34 and am approaching this field of refining with great respect. I, much like most of you, am not scared to try and fail at something that is difficult as long as the reward is worthwhile. I started a very successful chain of discount dry cleaners in easter north carolina and have recently sold out. Dry cleaning, much like refining, is not easy (if it were, everyone would be doing it not just the Koreans). I am simply too young to retire so i would love to find something to "kill time" and potentially make a few extra bucks on the side without having to report to "the man".

I have a few friends that own jewelry stores and am capable of purchasing scrap gold with ads and online or on fleabay. Meaning, I will only be refining jewelry grade silver, gold and platinum for now. My questions are, I have noticed in the previous posts that almost everyone dislikes ishor or shor due to their chemical scam and porly manufactured machine; although I only saw a few people comment on its true capabilities. I am not scared of the aqua regia method (ive been dealing with perchlorethylene for quite some time). This leads me to the Amrit system or one like it.

It appears that they use a similar method to the aforementioned aqua regia but control their vapors through pumps and tubing. I believe palladium mentioned that you could build their machine for like $4,000. Well, they sell it for $4,800 (If you get the machine you have been working on going Palladium I will be a buyer). Nevertheless, I am not a big fan of messing with Acids that, as mentioned in numerous posts, can kill you on the spot; especially with kids in the house. If i can spend some dough on a machine that conveniently contains these lethal chemicals without me having to continuously handle them, I'm in. Palladium said in a post about the shor system that the technique is good but the equipment is crap (which is why he is making an industrial one I guess). I would just like to buy some scrap gold, silver, platinum etc. and refine it to keep some and resell some. I am also in the process of reading Refining Precious Metal Wastes by C.M. Hoke. I appreciate and welcome all questions, comments and criticisms. I can also be contacted on graff102577@yahoo . If anyone has one of these machines and lives in eastern NC, I would not mind paying you for your time and knowledge.

 

[Geo]

i may not be the one to respond, really, i guess i shouldn't be so you can take what i have to say as purely my opinion.I've never owned the shor system and have never seen it work but i have researched it online and have read many reviews both good and bad.i suppose the system works better with some material and not so well with other material.i can tell you the chemical process that the system uses is what is referred to as "poor mans AR".HCL and sodium nitrate are the two main chemicals with sodium nitrate being "subzero". that's not the only system they employ but its the most widely used.storm precipitant is sodium sulfite. no process is recommended in your living space,whether in a basement or attached garage or kitchen.even their system deals with chemicals you dont want in your family's environment.

just my opinion.be safe.

 

[element47]

Congrats on your studied approach.

There is a whole chain of considerations as to whether one can refine metals on a profitable basis. One of them, certainly, is how you plan to obtain enough mat'ls to make the effort worth it. You say you have some pals who have jewelry stores who buy junk jewelry. Basically, they all do. They all know the values of scrap jewelry they buy. It would be an astounding advantage to have them as "collectors" of scrap out there in the world, but they are not going to "give you money" or "sacrifice money" by letting you refine their goods if you can only return say 85% of what they are already getting. Sure, they may throw you a few pieces on the buddy system for the sake of you learning, but these guys know, and know well, the value of their junk. And, they probably have a fair amount of it, which means they can get 96%, 97% or more of spot for it because they 1: periodically submit in large qtys, and 2: can separate their karat types knowledgeably so that the refiners they already use have confidence in what they are getting and know they cannot screw around with them. As a small-lot beginner, it's hard to imagine you would able to compete with established, skilled refiners.

So, without trying to discourage you in any way, I wouldn't expect your jeweler pals to throw you anything but smallish bones to help you get started.

 

[mgraff77]

First, and foremost, I would like to say thank you to everyone who has replied thus far and those who will reply in the future with their invaluable knowledge and insight. I wouldn't be where i am today without trial and error, persistence and the help of so many of my peers in the industry. This forum, in itself, is a gold mine of knowledge. I, for one, can assure you that I will do my best not to ask repeated questions and waste your time. With that being said, I would like to respond to element and geo.

I am somewhat familiar with the methods used in the shor simplicity system. Let me rephrase that, I am vaguely familiar. Also, I understand that bulk is the key to obtaining a decent price, which is the basic principle for most business models. I have a decent understanding of karat weight and what each can be purchased for. I hope that my friends can "throw me a bone" or two while I'm learning (I'm sure they will). I suppose that my main objective is to obtain most of my scrap via on line purchases like ebay and local ads where i come to you to buy your gold or gold parties. In the event that the opportunity provided itself to me, I would have no problem buying in bulk from whomever. I am not going to buy a cheap system like shor to try to refine the gold that i purchase. I believe and trust in the aqua regia method because i believe and trust in the devoted followers of this forum. With that being said, it appears that amrit uses the aqua regia method but in a safer capacity which is one of my main objectives (right next to not losing moeny). I am looking for some people that have used the amrit system and can either sing its praises or burn it to the ground and explain why in either instance.

i guess my listing title should have been amrit and others like it.....is it worth it?

I do believe that inquarting is possible with amrit.
Mike

 

[Geo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98fJ8-4qKkQ

it looked like they started with gold that was pretty pure to start with.the process appears to be aqua regia.it may have been inquarted as the solution was quite green and resembled silver (in my opinion) as copper just looks different.

 

[mgraff77]

i found a really good at home video that i thought some people might find useful (including myself if/when i attempt to use the aqua regia method) so I thought that I shoudl share it. also, it gives a shout out to gold refining forum. again, I would appreciate any comments on this. the only analagy that i can think of is that it is like watching a professional athlete perform on tv. they do it so effortlessly that you convince yourself that it is easy enough for you the exact same way easily. a lot like laser steve.

it must be annoying for all of you professionals out there reading through all of these repitious comments from greenhorns like me. I am the type of person thought that looks at something and wants to know exactly how it works. i ask way too many questions and I dont stop until i feel like i know the answer. the most difficult part about all of this is that i am a tactile learner (i have to touch it in order to learn it). I just wish there was someone out there who lived close to me that i could learn from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTBBYogskS8&feature=related

 

[Geo]

Kadriver has several nice videos. search his name in the search box and check out his post to find them.

 

[mgraff77]

wil do... thanks, mike

 

[butcher]

eremgraff77,
For me this is a hobby, I could not give up my day job, forget about making money from buying scrap off EBay, I found out early that was a loosing battle, sometimes even free electronic scrap is very hard to come by, and unless you get it free or have excellent sources and work in tons of it, I do not see anybody making enough money to feed themselves on it(without putting in much more work than they would working a burger king wages), like element47 said so well, people know the value of scrap (and many think it is much more valuable than it really is), so unless you learn the value of scrap you will spend more than it is worth, and even though we can educate ourselves to an certain extent, many times we are taking a gamble when we buy scrap materials, (gold or silver we can test, we can get some idea of value from certain electronic components, and educate ourselves as much as possible to help somewhat), but many times you do not know what something is worth until your done, and many times I probably have spent much more time and money on my gold than if I just went out and bought it.

This is a very time consuming hobby, also for some of us very addictive, many of us spend much more time and energy on a few dollars of gold (that if we got a job at McDonalds the pay there would put our gold reserves to shame), this is not to say that we cannot make money at it or that we may not put some gold in our pocket, but education and skill are needed, these are not easily come by, and also how easily you can get the materials you need, I live far out in the country, so I do not buy gold from garage sales and the like, when I do buy scrap gold I buy from a dealer, who sells to me for melt value, also my funds limit the amount I can buy, for me refining my piggy bank is a hobby, and hopefully the day I need to pull from my piggy bank the price of the metals will be higher than they were the day I purchased them, and hopefully the inflation at that time will not eat up all of my piggy bank.

I guess what I am trying to say is yes there are some ways some people may profit from this, (getting good at testing buying and selling), (learning to deal in scrap metals buying and selling),(make a little money collecting large volumes of electronic waste and processing or selling it), (learning to refine well for jewelers or some other market), (buying karat gold low price garage sale or from public and refining), (acquire gold at lower value today and selling when market peaks), (or find a rich placer mine get in the cold water and make a few dollars).

But I would say that most miners do not make money, they mine because they love it.
If you approach it this way, and get the education and skills and do better than most miners, then well you are ahead of the game.

Yes there can be money in it, but nothing like most people would think. I just hope to break even. (Not counting my time involved)
The education is where the value is for me, and putting my hard earned money into gold is fun.
Who knows it could work into some kind of business for you, and you could profit, just do not start out with gold fever, a disease that is hard to avoid.

You do not need any Shor kits; all of the information is here on the forum.
It is free learning and experimenting does not cost much (if you do not let it), but thinking of just jumping into a profitable business, well think dry-cleaning.

Welcome to the forum you’re going to like it here.

 

[4metals]

For what you are trying to do I do not feel that any refining machine is versatile enough. I have seen an Amrit system in operation and it seemed cumbersome. If the maximum quantity of gold you wish to process is under 500 grams per lot and you do not intend to grow any larger, then perhaps the Amrit is for you. But don't be fooled into thinking that you can do everything you will need to do with one piece of equipment.

To start as you are suggesting you will need the ability to part with nitric after inquarting, to refine with aqua rega, to cement and purify your silver electrolytically and a small capacity for platinum group recovery. For the most part, you need a good hood and scrubber, the rest can be done in beakers and gradually into reactors when your volume increases. A well exhausted work area (hood) and a scrubber for the fume (assuming you live in a populated area) will allow you the space to do all of the different chemical tasks you will need to be successful. The Amrit only accomplishes one of these tasks leaving you to buy additional systems to expand capabilities while limiting your production quantities to the largest reactor the system takes.

I don't like machines like the Amrit because they are limited in what they do. They are attractive to those who want a technology solution to refining without the learning curve. That type of refining is destined to fail.

Shor works on the principle of a fizzer cell, I go into a lot of refineries and see them tucked away on dust covered shelves often. So lots of real refiners have tried the system and gave up on it. They are not made for what you want to do, although Shor seems to think they are.

 

[publius]

My opinion, for what is is worth...

These "systems" are very good at doing one thing with specific materials. Once you get out of the range of the "specified" gold content of your feed stock, the system does not work efficiently, at best and not at all, at worst.

You are better off learning the basic chemistry of precious metal recovery and refining for the material that is your most readily available feed stock and stick with that until you have all the kinks and quarks worked out. Then you can branch out into other areas of PM recovery and refining.

These systems are cheats in my opinion. The manufacturers of these systems "cheat" you by not telling you the whole story concerning the system's capacity and capability. They play on your greed, as well. If it was suppose to be easy, everyone would be getting gold from sea water.

Learn the chemistry so you don't throw you precious metals down the drain.

Above all, be safe. no amount of gold is worth you health or the health of others.

 

[mgraff77]

thanks for the responses. it is your expertise that has pursuaded me to not get the amrit (the ishor was never really an option). i think that i am going to have to find another/safer way to refine using the aqua regia. butcher, i too am going into this as a hobby with the hopes that i might make some money on the side with this. after evaluating everyones opinion and comments, it sounds like what i need to do is start with the aqua regia process to learn the basics of the process (i'm about a quarter way through c.m hoke). try to buy some scrap gold off of the street....learn my profit margins....pray that gold, silver, platinum..etc goes up...hold on to half of my loot and try to sell the other half. I'll be knee deep in the aqua regia process next time we talk. Thanks for all of your insight, Mike. if there is a well tuned refinery out there that wouldnt mind a visit, let me know. send me a private message and i'll give you my phone number or email me at graff102577@yahoo. there is money to be made here...i am going to figure it out and tell you how.

 

[jimdoc]

if there is a well tuned refinery out there that wouldnt mind a visit, let me know.

Here is a video visit for you;
http://www.ganoksin.com/benchtube/video/34/Gold-Refining--Part-1
http://www.ganoksin.com/benchtube/video/35/Gold-Refining--Part-2

Jim

 

[element47]

mgraff, take note that among the many refiners (both pro and hobbyist and pure newbie) who post on this forum, the single most profitable segment of the food chain is (by my reckoning) occupied by those who buy scrap jewelry and resell it to refiners and NEVER TOUCH chemicals. Add that thought into your calcs.

 

[4metals]

Most refiners will not open their doors to show you how they do it, don't know whether it is their fear of competition or the fact that once you see it you will realize "I can do that!"

If you notice in the video's Jimdoc posted that the only real equipment this refiner has (that he is showing) is a hood and a melting source, for the video it is by torch. I'm sure there is a scrubber where the fumes sucked out of the beakers are treated but that is all you need. A few beakers, suction and filtration and you're off.

Note the green flame when he melted the gold sponge. That is from the base metals remaining from poor rinsing. This guy's metal is not nearly as pure as it can be had he inquarted first, parted and aqua regia refined the residues.

 

[4metals]

take note that among the many refiners (both pro and hobbyist and pure newbie) who post on this forum, the single most profitable segment of the food chain is (by my reckoning) occupied by those who buy scrap jewelry and resell it to refiners and NEVER TOUCH chemicals. Add that thought into your calcs.

This is very true, and ironically this same group is the group driving the cost of refining down to rates that make doing it on a small scale unprofitable. And that is why so many refiners have to profit every way imaginable.

 

[Smack]

if there is a well tuned refinery out there that wouldnt mind a visit, let me know.

Here is a video visit for you;
http://www.ganoksin.com/benchtube/video/34/Gold-Refining--Part-1
http://www.ganoksin.com/benchtube/video/35/Gold-Refining--Part-2


Was lmao at the guy on the ladder, now I'll have to one up him by doing it off my roof :roll:
In a cape

 

[g_axelsson]

Here is a video visit for you;
http://www.ganoksin.com/benchtube/video/34/Gold-Refining--Part-1
http://www.ganoksin.com/benchtube/video/35/Gold-Refining--Part-2

Jim

After seeing the video I think the main reason refiners don't want to show their operation is because they look stupid and amateurish. :twisted:
I saw a number of things they could have done better... just that they describe their silver chloride as "green" tells me that they didn't clean it very well and as the "green liquid" is their gold chloride solution a lot of gold went with the silver. The batch system they used makes me suspect that the gold belonged to specific customers. An easy way to skim a couple of percent extra gold with the silver.
So... based on my experience as a hobby refiner I would say they made a few mistakes along the road...
- No inquartation
- Usage of standard 3:1 aqua regia, I always use more of HCl to be sure not to run out of it in the reaction.
- Using way too much nitric acid
- Not cleaning the silver chloride, skimming off gold
- dropping gold from a dirty solution
- no washing of the gold, the quality shows in the color of the gold powder and the flame color when melting

Though, I liked their setup with several beakers and a drop-down lid to collect fumes and usage of safety gear.

Göran

 

[4metals]

And he didn't use stannous to test the solution, he was looking for fine black particles of gold sticking to his stir rod. Interesting use of formic acid to kill the excess nitric. Treating his waste will prove very difficult.

 

[Dan Dement]

Mgraff,

Let me give you my 2 cents. I am the owner of rather succesful Manufacturing Jewelery store specializing in Platinum & Palladium and known to have every toy in my industry. I am no spring chicken and have well over 40 years experience mostly in the wholesale diamond business. I really claim no expertise except in understanding a dollar and come from the Diamond business were your word is EVERYTHING! Being the King of the Toys, I am on my fourth XRF and two dedicated SG machines plus two Induction Melters. When I cash out I get within a $20 window on $15,000 amounts.

Let's talk about I Shor for a minute. The President of I Shor is Peter Romanofsky and he moderates the Palladium Guilders group on Linked In. I would suggest you read his posts and attitude on his Blog of Linked In and compare that to the fine moderators of GRF. Then, I would ask myself, do I want to give this company $5,000 of my money? For me, the most important question:, Can I make money refining my own gold? Another important question is: How much gold is really in this batch of jewelry? I think I recieve 98.5% on my gold, same day, usually in a 15 minute time span. I am in San Antonio and see a large amount of jewelry from Mexico and often see 14kt marked gold under 40% purity.

I am privledged to have some really smart people who I call friends. These smart people have degrees from Phd's to Masters in Chemical Engineering and a couple run BIG companies doing things far more complicated than refining gold. The point I am trying to make with you is that I don't think you can start today, refine gold off the street and make money doing it. When I can get 98.5% for a check at what I call it, How do you improve on that? To put it in dollars & cents, on $15,000 worth of gold, Can you buy the chemicals, and equipment, refine the gold, and sell the pure gold for $225.?

So, being the number guy that I am, the Ship has sailed on the big profit gold buying days. Most stores and refiners are buying about 50% of previous years volume. In Texas, we now have to report all buys to the Police or "Leads on Line", take pictures and report, not alter the jewelry and hold for 10 days. We have been paying an honest 82% for years and today, it's is almost imposssible to come out as the only way to sure of what you have is to melt it and test it. Holding gold for 10 days in a declining market is certainly not profitable. Some area's like Houston, are really enforcing the law and some areas are not. WE do not make our living buying gold but in years past, it was profitable. Today, except for some bigger diamonds we buy, it is at best, a break even situation.

My suggestion is to look at this venture very carefully before you jump into it. The most important issue in gold buying is having a way to test the material. The learning curve of losing your money & time is generally fairly short. As Chris says: The Refiner is the last liar.

Good Luck,

Dan