AP Questions

[Livala]

Hello All,

I have some questions regarding the AP solution where I am using HCl with 34% H2O2.

The media that I am processing are trimmed fingers from obsolete RAM and GPUs, and scrapped out clean (free of components and solder)PCMBs.

The solution does a great job of removing the gold from the media, but I am thinking that because of the concentration of the oxidizer, I am putting the gold into solution. I have read mixed responses as to whether or not this occurs. So I'm asking for your thoughts. Also, what are the white granules that break down and are found in this solution?

My next question involves the gold foils and waste that is filtered out. What are all y'alls thoughts on incineration of all the filters and waste, then processing the charred remains in a low volume Piranha Solution? Would doing this remove the carbon the white granules? Or would I be better off just going straight onto Aqua Regia?

Anyways, I know I have a lot to learn, but that is why I'm reaching out.

Thanks!

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hello All,

I have some questions regarding the AP solution where I am using HCl with 34% H2O2.

The media that I am processing are trimmed fingers from obsolete RAM and GPUs, and scrapped out clean (free of components and solder)PCMBs.

The solution does a great job of removing the gold from the media, but I am thinking that because of the concentration of the oxidizer, I am putting the gold into solution. I have read mixed responses as to whether or not this occurs. So I'm asking for your thoughts. Also, what are the white granules that break down and are found in this solution?

My next question involves the gold foils and waste that is filtered out. What are all y'alls thoughts on incineration of all the filters and waste, then processing the charred remains in a low volume Piranha Solution? Would doing this remove the carbon the white granules? Or would I be better off just going straight onto Aqua Regia?

Anyways, I know I have a lot to learn, but that is why I'm reaching out.

Thanks!

Welcome.
When that is done I sadly have bash you a bit.
Do not use lingo like y'all, this is an international forum where some of our members depend on translators.

You have probably lost a significant portion of your Gold due to cementing.
Here is why:
When you use this strong Peroxide the Gold dissolves for then
more or less simultaneously cementing out on any exposed base metal as the Copper traces inside the PCBs.
To create AP you need only a tiny splash of 3-6% Peroxide.
Or even better, a piece of corroded Copper which is put into HCl.
Then use an aquarium bubbler to bubble air through the solution.
I do not know of any granules forming but Copper Chloride is a white insoluble powder (in water).
With air bubbling it will be regenerated back to Copper II Chloride which will continue etching the Copper.

DO NOT create or use Piranha solution, there is absolutely NO use for it in refining.
Hot Aqua Regia will dissolve the paper in the filters.
Make sure to add Nitic by the drop so you don't over add it, it will save you a lot of hassle down the road.

Finally here ios what we like our new members to do:

Read C.M. Hokes book on refining jewelers scrap, it gives an easy introduction to the most important chemistry regarding refining.
It is free here on the forum:
https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=19798Then read the safety section of the forum
And then read about "Dealing with waste" in the forum

 

[Livala]

Thank you for your reply, and sorry about the friendly lingo. I have read through the safety forums, and I will read the book.

I am not sure that the gold cemented to the copper in the PCBs though because when I rinse them off, they seem very clean. I do still have a good amount of gold flakes that are caught in the filters. If I do have gold in solution, though, shouldn't I be able to get it to precipitate out with SMB?

Again, thanks for the reply.

 

[Shark]

The copper going into solution will push the gold out. Yggdrasils explanation is the correct version but can be confusing to understand. Copper and gold trade places during the AP process and most often will not have both in solution at the same time.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

In your opening post, you mentioned these were "PCMBs". It's not a term I'm really familiar with, but I'm guessing you meant personal computer mother boards. It's important to use common, accepted terminology so we aren't left guessing. Mother boards, and many other circuit boards are made of multiple layers, with copper traces running between the layers to connect to the various components. That's where gold can be lost when it cements out onto the hidden layers. You won't see it because the copper traces run between layers of the boards. That's why it's not a good idea to run such boards along with other materials.

Dave

 

[Livala]

Sorry that was a typo. PCBs they are clean. Scrapped out for various reasons, such as humidity or damage.

 

[Livala]

They are printed circuit boards.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

I understand they're printed circuit boards. The point is that many printed circuit boards are multi-layered.

Dave

 

[kurtak]

I am using HCl with 34% H2O2.

How much H2O2 did you add to how much HCl

I ask because - especially when using 34% H2O3 - if you used more then a couple/few ml of H2O2 you will most certainly dissolve some gold

The question is - did you dissolve enough gold to worry about - or not

That question is answered by how much H2O2 did you add to how much HCl

Example; - if you only added 3ml to 10ml H2O2 to 4 liters (or a gallon) HCl then you likely only dissolved a few atoms of gold to maybe one milligram gold - in which case it's not enough gold to be concerned with (it's not a measurable amount)

On the other hand - if you added 1 liter H2O2 (34%) to 4 liters HCl you most certainly will dissolve a measurable amount of gold --- how much will depend on a few things such as temperature of the solution &/or how much copper compared to gold is being reacted with (dissolved by) the HCl/H2O2 --- so it could be anywhere from 1/4 gram gold to 2 or 3 grams gold (& even more)

If the solution temp is room temp (65 F) or less it will dissolve more copper & less gold --- If the solution temp is room temp or more you will dissolve more gold & less copper --- in other words the higher the solution temp the more the oxidizer is able to react with the gold while also reacting with the copper

The more copper there is compared to gold the more opportunity the oxidizer has to react with the copper instead of the gold --- so though you dissolve both copper & gold - less gold is dissolved

If there isn't a lot of copper compared to gold the oxidizer has more opportunity to dissolve more gold - while also dissolving copper

Then - once all the copper is dissolved - IF - there is still "free" oxidizer in the solution the oxidizer will continue to dissolve gold until the oxidizer is used up & you will have gold dissolved in the solution

On the other hand - if all the oxidizer is used up & there is still undissolved copper - the copper will start cementing the gold out of the solution

That cemented gold will then end up in the bottom of your reaction vessel/bucket mixed in with any other solids in the bottom of the vessel/bucket

So - depending on how much "other" solids are in the bottom of your vessel/bucket you may or not see the gold even though there is a measurable amount of gold that has been cemented out of the solution by the copper

And/or - if the circuit boards have layers of copper in them - then some of the gold - that is cemented out of the solution by the copper will end up trapped in between the circuit board layers

but I am thinking that because of the concentration of the oxidizer, I am putting the gold into solution. I have read mixed responses as to whether or not this occurs.

So - per the bold print --- the fact of the matter is that HCl + H2O2 - will dissolve gold - even if it just one atom of gold --- just how much gold it will dissolve depends on the conditions as explained above - which only you have control of

In other words it is not a question of whether HCl + H2O2 will dissolve gold - or not (because it most certainly will) --- the real question is whether the HCl + H2O2 is going to dissolve enough gold to matter - or not ?

A few atoms &/or milligrams doesn't really matter - but when it starts to be a tenth of gram or more it matters

Kurt

 

[Livala]

Over a period of 6-8 months, I have added 2-3 liters of 34% H2O2 into the bucket that contained 3 gallons of HCl. The bucket's temperature has fluctuated between seasons, and has gotten pretty cold but never freezing cold. I believe a significant amount of gold has dissolved. I still have many boards to process through the solution. If the gold can be cemented out by displacing it with copper, I'm ok with that, because I can probably control that better by filtering the solution before adding some copper bar stock or tubing.

 

[Livala]

I understand they're printed circuit boards. The point is that many printed circuit boards are multi-layered.

Dave

I have the reports, which I can look at to verify.

 

[Martijn]

You really need to stop (adding H2O2 at least) and study a bit more before you fill another swimming pool with a truckload of acids and PCB's and then ask for help.
Once you've mastered a process and understand it, then it's time to scale up. You have 3 gallons of test solution..
Crawl, stand, walk, then run.

 

[Coldgarage]

If you were cementing your waste, Acid-peroxide solution in a waste bucket with supported, copper shreddings and an air bubbler (pvc pipe of copper pieces with air bubbling from below supported copper and through pipe top to induce circulation movement and self-cleaning of cement off of pipe), you would be catching the gold (and other PMs less reactive than copper as chlorides) before throwing it away. Sounds as if you are throwing away waste acids and are only regretting your personal, monetary loss, and not the neighbor's great-grandchildren or their pets. Please learn to clean up your mess before making it. Please make this a better planet with every step forward. Please.

 

[Livala]

If you were cementing your waste, Acid-peroxide solution in a waste bucket with supported, copper shreddings and an air bubbler (pvc pipe of copper pieces with air bubbling from below supported copper and through pipe top to induce circulation movement and self-cleaning of cement off of pipe), you would be catching the gold (and other PMs less reactive than copper as chlorides) before throwing it away. Sounds as if you are throwing away waste acids and are only regretting your personal, monetary loss, and not the neighbor's great-grandchildren or their pets. Please learn to clean up your mess before making it. Please make this a better planet with every step forward. Please.

I haven't disposed of any waste acids. This have all taken place in the same bucket, which is why, more than anything, that I am very hopeful to recover the gold.

 

[Livala]

You really need to stop (adding H2O2 at least) and study a bit more before you fill another swimming pool with a truckload of acids and PCB's and then ask for help.
Once you've mastered a process and understand it, then it's time to scale up. You have 3 gallons of test solution..
Crawl, stand, walk, then run.

I thought this was a forum where people who are refining, learning to refine, or are asking for help in understanding came discuss techniques. Apparently, I was wrong, and it's just place where uppity refiners like you come to throw shade on those who are just getting started. Your comment lends zero value to this conversation. How about realizing that there are going to be many many more people like me coming on and asking for help? This is because they, like me, see the alarming direction that the central banks of this world are taking us, and in a race against time, are trying to every little thing they can, to insure that they secure their wealth.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I thought this was a forum where people who are refining, learning to refine, or are asking for help in understanding came discuss techniques. Apparently, I was wrong, and it's just place where uppity refiners like you come to throw shade on those who are just getting started. Your comment lends zero value to this conversation. How about realizing that there are going to be many many more people like me coming on and asking for help? This is because they, like me, see the alarming direction that the central banks of this world are taking us, and in a race against time, are trying to every little thing they can, to insure that they secure their wealth.

That is why we ask all newcomers to do 3 things.

1. Read C.M. Hokes book on refining jewelers scrap, it gives an easy introduction to the most important chemistry regarding refining.
It is free here on the forum:
https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=197982. Then read the safety section of the forum
3. And then read about "Dealing with waste" in the forum

We do not have the time nor the energy to spoon feed people.
So we ask them to study first.

We are doing this free, of our own good will.

 

[Shark]

Keep in mind also that many of the “helpers” work for a living and are not rich enough to just sit around and wait to help everyone the minute they pop in.

 

[Livala]

Are you implying that I don't work and just sit around all day waiting for someone to reply?

 

[Yggdrasil]

Are you implying that I don't work and just sit around all day waiting for someone to reply?

No, I guess he refers to your slightly acrid post complaining for not getting the answer you wanted.

 

[butcher]

I would say after what you said you would like a reply, I wouldn't but you look like you are waiting for it.

If you are in a hurry and your goal is to secure wealth, you are trying to learn the wrong profession or skills, recovery and refining can take time to learn, and it takes a lot of time to study, if the work is done you will gain enough understanding for small simple experiments, and gaining more understanding, learning enough to form better questions to be answered and with the knowledge from your study and the experience from the small experiment enough to begin to process learning some of the recovery or refining processes, with that and more work you gain the skills to troubleshoot problems as they appear, you have enough understanding to keep you out of most problems and enough to get out of the others...

You can spend years learning with little gain in gold, with an education that you cannot put a price on, and with an education have a good understanding of gold and how to find, recover and process, understand its value, so then the education begins to pay for itself, in more than one way.

I learned from teaching myself, the forum and its discussions add to my education, and that leads me to even more study of my own on the ideas or processes or chemistry involved, adding to my all-growing interest and things to learn.

I never expected to learn from asking questions, I do not expect anyone to learn much from an answer to one question, leaving a million new ones unanswered or with only one of the many available possible answers to a problem, with nowhere to learn more on the subject, to stumble along to the next problem.

Getting at most one problem solved, just to stumble into the next problem with no answer except to beg for help.

An answer only leads to another question and a hundred more questions if you are lucky enough to be able to understand the answer you have been given.

You have been given good answers and helpful tips to get started, taking the advice given could help you along in your goal, but it will not teach you what takes years to learn or will it hand it to you on a plate, nor will it educate you enough to "secure your wealth" in a hurry, taking the advice may lead you to answers you can find in your pursuits in this vast field of study, that is if you work to find answers to the million questions each found answer generates on your long journey of educating yourself.

Take some time to study, and gain a little understanding of any questions you have from that forum will be glad to help you with it.

Drop the chip off of your shoulder, and you will find these guys very helpful in helping you with your work to attain your goals and possibly help you with your gold and the problems you are causing from your miss lead ideas of the chemistry involved.

Keep a chip on your shoulder and only you will lose, lose the chip and you can gain.