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Bullion.Forum
Bad Experience With Hi-Tech PMR
- Thread starter Joeforbes
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Dan Dement
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2012
- Messages
- 243
Joe,
First let me tell you I don't do business with Hi-Tech but have friends that do. Hi-Tech has a very good reputation and that comes form people to do know what they are doing. So, I have not ax to grind with Hi-Tech and only have nice things to say about them. I have a Jewelry Store and manufacture Platinum and Palladium Jewelry and buy/sell lots of gold every year. I Just have had my fourth XRF machine installed and have been upgrading for several years as better machines come into the market and have sold all my previous machines to friends. I also have two Specific Gravity scales that are accurate when you are dealing with solid masses and have two induction melters so toys, I have. I cash out several times a week in $12,000 $17,000 area and usually agree within $20. on my cash outs with a different Refiner.
You got several potential problem areas. First, most XRF machines are set up to read a tin/gold alloy. Lower priced XRF machines are matched to known standards which Tin is usually not in a common gold standard. The XRF is going to match it to the closest known standard that makes up a 100% of the metal so you start throwing uncommon mixtures at the machine, it is going to be off and sometimes wayoff. I have been experimenting with Rhodium and my former machine did not have a Rhodium standard in it, so it was WAY wrong. Second: Tin is very light like Zinc and I am sure it moves around a lot. When I melt 600 grams of gold in one of my Induction Melters, in just a few seconds, gold stratifies meaning it goes into layers. If you pour the metal into an ingot, you are better tilting the ingot and get a wedge. With a wedge, you measure all 5 sides and get an average. Third: If you run a S.G. test on the gold, you are going to have an seperate test that will agree closely with your XRF test to see if you got a good reading.
Now, with all that said, I am willing to bet that Hi Tech is correct and you are wrong. I have no axe to grind and if you want me to run the metal for you, I am happy to give you another opinion on what it is. I understand your frustration and know that you are just trying to get the most for your labor. I have studied Pin Samples and methods used to determine the fineness of a gold bar. I understand how XRF's work and how you can fool them. I have cut many of gold wedges and Ingot's in half to run the inside and to see what gold does when poured into bars. All I can tell you is you can get a lot of help with GRF guys. I know I have been in your shoes and keep learning until I found the right answer for me.
Good Luck and we all have been there!
Dan
First let me tell you I don't do business with Hi-Tech but have friends that do. Hi-Tech has a very good reputation and that comes form people to do know what they are doing. So, I have not ax to grind with Hi-Tech and only have nice things to say about them. I have a Jewelry Store and manufacture Platinum and Palladium Jewelry and buy/sell lots of gold every year. I Just have had my fourth XRF machine installed and have been upgrading for several years as better machines come into the market and have sold all my previous machines to friends. I also have two Specific Gravity scales that are accurate when you are dealing with solid masses and have two induction melters so toys, I have. I cash out several times a week in $12,000 $17,000 area and usually agree within $20. on my cash outs with a different Refiner.
You got several potential problem areas. First, most XRF machines are set up to read a tin/gold alloy. Lower priced XRF machines are matched to known standards which Tin is usually not in a common gold standard. The XRF is going to match it to the closest known standard that makes up a 100% of the metal so you start throwing uncommon mixtures at the machine, it is going to be off and sometimes wayoff. I have been experimenting with Rhodium and my former machine did not have a Rhodium standard in it, so it was WAY wrong. Second: Tin is very light like Zinc and I am sure it moves around a lot. When I melt 600 grams of gold in one of my Induction Melters, in just a few seconds, gold stratifies meaning it goes into layers. If you pour the metal into an ingot, you are better tilting the ingot and get a wedge. With a wedge, you measure all 5 sides and get an average. Third: If you run a S.G. test on the gold, you are going to have an seperate test that will agree closely with your XRF test to see if you got a good reading.
Now, with all that said, I am willing to bet that Hi Tech is correct and you are wrong. I have no axe to grind and if you want me to run the metal for you, I am happy to give you another opinion on what it is. I understand your frustration and know that you are just trying to get the most for your labor. I have studied Pin Samples and methods used to determine the fineness of a gold bar. I understand how XRF's work and how you can fool them. I have cut many of gold wedges and Ingot's in half to run the inside and to see what gold does when poured into bars. All I can tell you is you can get a lot of help with GRF guys. I know I have been in your shoes and keep learning until I found the right answer for me.
Good Luck and we all have been there!
Dan
JoeForbes,
I would suggest that you take a portion of your pin tube sample and send it for analysis via fire assay. Of course, that will only give you the gold content, not the tin, but it will give you a basis for comparison versus Hi-Tech.
Here are the labs I would suggest:
AH Knight www.ahkgroup.com they are in Spartanburg, South Carolina
Inspectorate www.inspectorate.com their office is in Houston, I am not sure where the lab is
Ledoux www.Ledoux.com they are in Teaneck, NJ
PTL Testing Labs www.ptltesting.com they are in Trenton, NJ
Jacobs Assay Office, no website, they are in Tucson, AZ 520-622-0813
AMC Company www.amccompany.com they are in Austin, TX
I have used all these at one time or another and have confidence in all.
I am not, and have never been associated with any of these companies.
I would suggest that you take a portion of your pin tube sample and send it for analysis via fire assay. Of course, that will only give you the gold content, not the tin, but it will give you a basis for comparison versus Hi-Tech.
Here are the labs I would suggest:
AH Knight www.ahkgroup.com they are in Spartanburg, South Carolina
Inspectorate www.inspectorate.com their office is in Houston, I am not sure where the lab is
Ledoux www.Ledoux.com they are in Teaneck, NJ
PTL Testing Labs www.ptltesting.com they are in Trenton, NJ
Jacobs Assay Office, no website, they are in Tucson, AZ 520-622-0813
AMC Company www.amccompany.com they are in Austin, TX
I have used all these at one time or another and have confidence in all.
I am not, and have never been associated with any of these companies.
EDI Refining
Well-known member
72% to 55% - Is quite the discrepancy
Aside from your internal assay, do you have a material breakdown of what you melted? i.e - 100g of 10kt , 50 g of 14kt , 20 g of 24kt
the inital breakdown of material prior to melt, would be nice to know as well
Aside from your internal assay, do you have a material breakdown of what you melted? i.e - 100g of 10kt , 50 g of 14kt , 20 g of 24kt
the inital breakdown of material prior to melt, would be nice to know as well
Ocean
Well-known member
Good luck, I hope this works out.
I can only praise PMR's service with me/my company.
I can only praise PMR's service with me/my company.
I got my material back today....
Their "melt loss" - 12.4 PENNYWEIGHTS out of 379.9 pennyweights.
That's almost 20 grams of material that just vanished.
Westerngs, thank you for the names of the assay laboratories.
Dan, Our XRF was a little more than $30,000. Not the most expensive machine available by any means, but this is the first time there has been non-negligible discrepancy between it and another refinery.
Our XRF being off or not, the melt loss alone is enough to make me not want to deal with this company again. What did they do, spill it?
Their "melt loss" - 12.4 PENNYWEIGHTS out of 379.9 pennyweights.
That's almost 20 grams of material that just vanished.
Westerngs, thank you for the names of the assay laboratories.
Dan, Our XRF was a little more than $30,000. Not the most expensive machine available by any means, but this is the first time there has been non-negligible discrepancy between it and another refinery.
Our XRF being off or not, the melt loss alone is enough to make me not want to deal with this company again. What did they do, spill it?
Dan Dement
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2012
- Messages
- 243
Joe,
I understand and have spent the time & effort to come up with a system were when I cash out, I come out within $20. of my calculations. Now, I don't deal with the tin but know that I don't have standards with tin in them. Send me a PM with your email and I will send you some studies that I have done. I am happy to send my worksheet and payouts for you to see for yourself. I would highly recommend an Alpha Mirage SG scale to compare your XRF readings. My latest XRF allows me to see if I have peaks in non-standard metals which will throw your readings way off. My SG gives readings very close to what my XFR readings indicate. I melt in a wedge which encourages stratification to see if I got some strange metals . I use an wand Induction Melter that really helps in mixing up the metals tht is very reasonable.
I am not trying to preach to you. I am only trying to help you learn the lessons to protect you don't get ripped off. I am not trying to define Hi Tech as I don't do business with them but I only have nice things to say about them. I am just saying that the way I do it will protect you from some Mail room guy ripping off your gold. In every orginization or business, sometimes a bad apple ends up in the henhouse which will steal if they have a chance.
Dan
I understand and have spent the time & effort to come up with a system were when I cash out, I come out within $20. of my calculations. Now, I don't deal with the tin but know that I don't have standards with tin in them. Send me a PM with your email and I will send you some studies that I have done. I am happy to send my worksheet and payouts for you to see for yourself. I would highly recommend an Alpha Mirage SG scale to compare your XRF readings. My latest XRF allows me to see if I have peaks in non-standard metals which will throw your readings way off. My SG gives readings very close to what my XFR readings indicate. I melt in a wedge which encourages stratification to see if I got some strange metals . I use an wand Induction Melter that really helps in mixing up the metals tht is very reasonable.
I am not trying to preach to you. I am only trying to help you learn the lessons to protect you don't get ripped off. I am not trying to define Hi Tech as I don't do business with them but I only have nice things to say about them. I am just saying that the way I do it will protect you from some Mail room guy ripping off your gold. In every orginization or business, sometimes a bad apple ends up in the henhouse which will steal if they have a chance.
Dan
MiguelRosas
Well-known member
Joe -
Every company in any industry, and heck a lot of customer, will always have a time where something does not add up to expectations. I am neither defending nor denying anything regarding your melt with Hi-Tech, and although I am unaware of this particular situation, I will be more than happy to review the footage, talk with the refiners, customer service department and owners to do our best to remedy this for you.
I know I truly value the business of each and every one of my customers, selfishly, since my paycheck depends on your satisfaction and continued business. So believe it or not, I NEED you to be happy with us, I NEED my refining team to make sure that every lot is melted, stirred, and assayed to the best of our ability so that YOU are happy and keep coming back.
Thank you Dan and Ocean for the kind words.
Joe, if there is any opportunity to regain your trust or business, I would like to discuss how to best accomplish that.
Kindest regards,
Miguel
Every company in any industry, and heck a lot of customer, will always have a time where something does not add up to expectations. I am neither defending nor denying anything regarding your melt with Hi-Tech, and although I am unaware of this particular situation, I will be more than happy to review the footage, talk with the refiners, customer service department and owners to do our best to remedy this for you.
I know I truly value the business of each and every one of my customers, selfishly, since my paycheck depends on your satisfaction and continued business. So believe it or not, I NEED you to be happy with us, I NEED my refining team to make sure that every lot is melted, stirred, and assayed to the best of our ability so that YOU are happy and keep coming back.
Thank you Dan and Ocean for the kind words.
Joe, if there is any opportunity to regain your trust or business, I would like to discuss how to best accomplish that.
Kindest regards,
Miguel
Dan Dement
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2012
- Messages
- 243
Joe,
What I can tell you is that after several years of learning and getting my process dowm, on the last 15 or more payouts at an average of $10-$12,000, I am less than $50. difference total on payouts in the $200,000 total range. Lot's of guys do this daily and I am no big guy. I cash out at 400 grams every couple of days. I am happy to show you how to it and it is not from guessing. My process has a safe guard of two different methods. Science not guess work.
With all the crazy things going on our economy, the difference of being the survivor of todays gold business is the accurate measurement of gold purity in your buying or selling. You GOt to know what to PAY and you got to know the right price to sell! Happy to help you if I can!
Dan
What I can tell you is that after several years of learning and getting my process dowm, on the last 15 or more payouts at an average of $10-$12,000, I am less than $50. difference total on payouts in the $200,000 total range. Lot's of guys do this daily and I am no big guy. I cash out at 400 grams every couple of days. I am happy to show you how to it and it is not from guessing. My process has a safe guard of two different methods. Science not guess work.
With all the crazy things going on our economy, the difference of being the survivor of todays gold business is the accurate measurement of gold purity in your buying or selling. You GOt to know what to PAY and you got to know the right price to sell! Happy to help you if I can!
Dan
Lobby
Well-known member
I'll be interested in seeing the results of your refining on this lot.
Concerning XRF's and tin: while I don't know which particular machine you have, nor how it's calibrated, most "consumer" XRF's work off standards that are inputted into the software.
I would doubt that your XRF has any tin standards in it, thus if your lot contained tin, your XRF would read high on gold.
When you get your sample back, recheck it with your xrf and look for the tin peak. Most XRF's have software that allows them to qualitatively ID unknown peaks. Hopefully, yours does also.
Good luck and let us know your results.
Concerning XRF's and tin: while I don't know which particular machine you have, nor how it's calibrated, most "consumer" XRF's work off standards that are inputted into the software.
I would doubt that your XRF has any tin standards in it, thus if your lot contained tin, your XRF would read high on gold.
When you get your sample back, recheck it with your xrf and look for the tin peak. Most XRF's have software that allows them to qualitatively ID unknown peaks. Hopefully, yours does also.
Good luck and let us know your results.
Lobby,
It very easily detected the tin, about 10% of the material.
From 39.96g of the material, we recovered a 27.91g button of gold.
This is a little less than what our XRF reading was, but still considerably higher than their 55% "assay" result.
I would like to point out that I am not disappointed in this transaction with hi-tech for ONLY their results being different than ours. Even if they were correct (which they were not), there are still other factors that make the whole situation a giant red flag.
-Their melt loss is unacceptable. How they could have lost so much is beyond me. It was either very sloppy refining, or purposeful dishonesty.
-After receiving the material, they decided they would only pay 90% instead of their agreed upon and advertised 98.5%.
Three separate factors to consider here.
It very easily detected the tin, about 10% of the material.
From 39.96g of the material, we recovered a 27.91g button of gold.
This is a little less than what our XRF reading was, but still considerably higher than their 55% "assay" result.
I would like to point out that I am not disappointed in this transaction with hi-tech for ONLY their results being different than ours. Even if they were correct (which they were not), there are still other factors that make the whole situation a giant red flag.
-Their melt loss is unacceptable. How they could have lost so much is beyond me. It was either very sloppy refining, or purposeful dishonesty.
-After receiving the material, they decided they would only pay 90% instead of their agreed upon and advertised 98.5%.
Three separate factors to consider here.
