Battery bipass 4 automatic charger on sulfuric cell

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chrishawn

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
84
Hi everyone and thanks for any advice.
I have an automatic charger that would not charge the cell, so I read here to use a car battery between the leads and it worked. I have already stripped one copper basket full in about 10 min. My question is there any issues I need to be concerned about using the car battery between the leads?
Thanks
 
Remember that the battery is an energy storage device. The battery charger puts out a limited amount of current. Most typical chargers are in the 10 to 12 amp range (though there are some that can far exceed this). If you touch the two leads of a battery charger together, you'll get a little spark, then the charger will shut down, either temporarily because of a safety shutdown circuit, or permanently. A battery can provide several hundred amps. If you short the two leads coming off the battery, you'll get a much larger spark, and the battery doesn't have a safety mechanism to shut it down. Shorting a battery can cause it to explode, sending sulfuric acid flying.

Dave
 
Thanks for the advice. Do I put the in line fuse on the charger and eliminate the battery? The cell did get hot 100-102 very fast however it did strip the pins very fast 2-3min.
You guys rock
 
It got hot fast and stripped very fast because the battery was pumping out a lot higher amperage than the charger ever would. Your charger might only show a few amps because that is all it was capable of sending to the battery. If you put an ammeter between the battery and the cell you would likely see a much higher reading.

Dave
 
An automotive battery has "cold cranking amps" that can exceed the thousand amp mark. I wouldn't recommend using a car battery in a stripping cell. There are some good post on converting a computer power supply for use in an electrolytic cell.
 
Thanks guys
I have stopped for the moment. I will eliminate the battery. I have read here that it is possible to install a light bulb between one lead and that will fix my problem. Any input on this idea and will it work?
Thanks Again
 
FrugalRefiner said:
If you touch the two leads of a battery charger together, you'll get a little spark, then the charger will shut down, either temporarily because of a safety shutdown circuit, or permanently
Thanks FrugalRefiner
This charger wont even start a to charge unless hooked up to a battery. When I plug it in the volt light and amp light come on but not the charging light. When I touch them together nothing happens
:shock:
 
chrishawn said:
This charger wont even start a to charge unless hooked up to a battery. When I plug it in the volt light and amp light come on but not the charging light. When I touch them together nothing happens
:shock:
It's another safety feature. Many are now designed so they don't put out any power until there is a load applied. Computer power supplies are made the same way these days. If you pull a PC power supply and plug it in, you may see the fan move just a little, then stop. If you connect a load like a computer mother board or a light bulb, the power supply comes to life. Same with a lot of battery chargers. Now if you connect a light bulb to either one, it will run. If you short the leads while it's running you'll see a spark.

Dave
 
That helps thanks
Any advise on what kind of light bulb to use and does it mater if its on the + or -?
By the way when I filtered the rinse water I used a walmart recycelable shopping bag and they work better than any other filter I have ever used. My wash water came out clear. Just an FYI :p
 
Placed correctly in the circuit the light bulb will limit the current, and help if the electrolytic cell was shorted.
It would solve your problem.

The light bulb will need to be in series with your electrolytic cell.

Use the words below like a schematic:
battery (+)---wire---(fuse)--wire----(lamp)---wire---[cells anode] ///////electrolyte solution////// [cells cathode]----wire---- battery (-).

The charger can go to your battery to help keep it fully charge if it is an automatic charger.
If it is not an automatic charger then the charger should only be used when the battery becomes discharged so you do not overcharge your battery boiling its water out.

The lamps wattage can be used to determine what the current will be limited to with a shorted electrolytic cell. Using ohms law, Watts divided by Volts = Amps.
We see a 24 watt lamp on 12 volts will limit current to 2 amps.
24Watts/12Volts=2 Amps

So in this example even if your cell shorted out the most the circuit can pull from your battery would be limited to 2 amps


Choosing different wattages would give different current limits.

choosing a higher wattage (12volt) lamp will give you a higher amperage limit for your circuit.

Using a fuse (or circuit breaker) in series , would still be a good idea in any circuit.
You would want the fuse in this case to be say a five amp fuse, so that it can easily pass 2 amps without heating and blowing, but if you mistakenly shorted your wiring the fuse would blow keeping excessive current draw from your battery.


In this circuit the electrolytic cell will have a resistance, which can vary with the condition's of the cell, or even become shorted, the lamp will let the current through this circuit to vary also, but will limit the current to a maximum value, (determined by lamps size), if the cell becomes a dead short with no resistance.

The lamps filament also gives you a visual clue to the cells resistance and its operation, if the cell has a high resistance then lamp will be dim (low current flow), as the resistance of the cell is lower the lamp will glow brighter (higher current flow), and if the cell is shorted (no resistance) the lamp will glow to full brightness with only 2amps (in this example) flowing through your lamp, your fuse and the shorted cell.
 
You can also use a variable transformer (variac) http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=variable%20transformer&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=variable%20transformer&sc=8-20&sp=-1&sk=
 
The variac will not work on DC from the battery, it would not help with the battery charger circuit in this case.

if you used a different type of battery charger (with a simple transformer and diodes for DC) and without the protections yours has in the built in circuit, then the variac could be used to lower the AC input to the battery charger and help to control your battery chargers voltage output.
 
A typical automotive type battery, when shorted out, can put out hundreds of (if not a thousand) amps. Sulphuric acid has a very low resistance and could look like a short circuit. By using a battery in place of the charger, the wires themselves could become red hot in a matter of seconds.

If you want to use a battery, place a 12 volt light bulb in series with the battery. The higher wattage the light, the more current which will be drawn. Using a fuse will not limit the current. It will either allow the current to flow or shut the current down when the current exceeds the fuse rating. The internal resistance of the light is what limits the current through the circuit.

Easy to set up. Positive lead to light bulb. Other lead from light bulb to cell. Negative lead from battery to cell. Light bulb can be put in the circuit on the negative battery lead with the same results. Important thing to remember is use a series circuit where all the components are in a single string from battery terminal through lamp then through cell then back to the battery. If you wire the lamp in parallel with the cell, you have accomplished nothing but what you had originally without the lamp.

The lamp should be somewhat dim when everything is wired in series because there will be a small voltage drop across the cell.

Good luck and be safe.
 
I had a situation arise needing my immediate attention. While resolving that, I was thinking about my reply and feel I should add some more to it.

If you use an automotive lamp like a dashboard lamp, it will burn at almost full brightness. However, its internal resistance is so high that it will not let much current flow. It could take a lifetime and still not allow much gold to be stripped.

A brake lamp, parking light or turn signal lamp will work, but it will also limit your current flow to only 1 or 2 amps.

A headlamp will allow for the highest current flow. I believe they draw between 5 and 10 amps which would be very good in this application. As an added bonus, as the gold strips in your cell, the resistance of the cell rises causing the bulb to slowly dim and possibly go out completely. If your cell is outdoors, you could look out a window and see the light has gone out. Having said that, I'm sure you are aware of the fact that you don't want rain, snow, or even the air in contact with the acid in the cell to have a high moisture content. It causes the acid to get hot and dilutes it as well.

I'm sorry I couldn't post this all at once and apologize for any confusion it may have caused. Let us know how things turn out. I like my sulphuric cell and use it whenever appropriate.
 
Thank all
I was in the process of wiring the lamp and fuse when out of no where my neighbor came over and said he had a manual charger I could have. So I got, tested it and it works great. Thanks to you all for the amazing knowledge yall have. I could not have done it with out the GRF :p
 
The automotive lamp wired in series is still a good feature with any type of battery charger or power supply, when wired and sized appropriately it can act as an indicator, and a safety feature (current regulator) it acts like a resistor in the circuit limiting current, with a visual indication of its voltage drop. In fact it works better than a normal resistor will in this case because the lamps filament varies with heat, the brighter the lamp the filament has a higher resistance.


Actually using a lamp acts as series load. Since it will limit current to non-destructive level, light bulb which will vary in its resistance by 1:10 from cold to hot resistance of the filiment. (as opposed to a fixed resistor), the lamps resistance can vary with its current through it. being in series it has the same current as your electrolytic cell draws, The light bulb, provides a nice visual indication of the current drawn by the circuit and of your electrolytic cell, it can be a visual indication of the cells resistance and the current it is drawing from the power supply, the lamp acts as an indicator of what is happening inside the cell.

How this works is an incandescent light bulb filament has a low resistance when cold, acting as a low ohm resistance (where almost all of the voltage drop will be across your electrolytic cell). When a higher current begins to flow and filament heats up, and resistance rises (the lamp becomes a larger resistor), if the electrolytic cell was to short the lamp will rapidly to act as a sort of current safety valve, so the lamp somewhat acts as a variable resistor, as the cells resistance changes so does the current through the circuit (the lamp wires and your electrolytic cell), and thus the lamps brightness, if the cell becomes a dead short the lamp will glow full bright, and limiting the current going through your cell (which can be determined by the wattage of the lamp you put into your circuit) so essentially you can choose a lamp to limit a maximum amperage or current you wish your cell to draw from your power supply (a good way to keep a small cell from overheating itself , limiting the cells watts (heat) of the cell.

In a series circuit, the amperage is the same, the voltage divides.

This means the lamp in series with your electrolytic cell, the current or amperage flowing through your lamp and cell will be the same, but with the lamp in series the voltage is divided between the lamp and your cell, with low current through the circuit the cold lamps filament has a lower resistance, this means it will not drop much of the voltage across it of the total circuit, and most of the voltage will be dropped across your electrolytic cell (determined also by the cells resistance which varies during operation or conditions), your electrolytic cell is also acting like a varying resistance as its conditions change.

As your the electrolytic cells resistance becomes lower, trying to pull more current the power supply the current flow through the series lamp also increases, making it brighter, and the filament becomes hotter, thus the lamp becomes more of a resistance with a greater voltage drop across it, which limits the voltage drop across the electrodes of the electrolytic cell (and its current flow), if the electrolytic cell becomes shorted out, or a dead short, all of the current is drawn across the lamps filament (heating the filament), the lamps hot filament resistance now will limit the current draw from the power supply for the whole circuit (to the lamps wattage, and the circuits maximum amperage) with the lamp taking all of the voltage of the circuit (the lamp dropping all of the 12 volts in this case), and the electrolytic cell not having any voltage drop across it.

As the cells resistance changes so does the lamps brightness, if you do not have much current flowing through your cell (less metal in the electrolytic solution) the lamp is dim, as the cell pulls more current the lamp brightness increases, and if the electrolytic cell, or the electrodes or circuit wiring shorts out, or draws excessive current the energy is absorbed by the lamp and doesn't cause further damage to the circuit or your cell or blow expensive fuses.

All the while giving you a visual indication of what is happening, it is kind of like using an ammeter in the circuit where you can see how much current is flowing through the circuit.
In this case it is a direct indication of the current flow through your circuit (or your electrolytic cells resistance).

Higher wattage lamp have lower resistance than lower wattage lamps!
To determine what wattage bulb to use you can use Ohms law.
Watts/Volts = Amps


This was a trick used in trouble shooting electronic circuits, I have used this trick in repairing TV's and many other electric and electronic circuits, it can be used for circuits like in troubleshooting a short in a vehicles wiring (by wiring in a small lamp in the place of the vehicles fuse in its fuse box) where if the circuit had a short or a problem (the lamp glows bright as long as the circuit is shorted, removing the short the lamp goes out, or if the circuit is normally powering its load the lamp is dim because of the normal resistance of the normal load of that circuit), with the lamp in series you could power up the circuit to find the problem without burning up the circuit, because the lamp can act as a current limiter of the circuit , or can help to keep from putting an excessive load on the power source, the lamp was also a visual indication of a problem, or what is happening in the circuit, and also as protection of the circuit.
This can also save money on fuses when trying to troubleshoot problems with a vehicles circuit, or some other circuit, where you are not blowing handfuls of fuses to find a simple short in the vehicles wiring, also as a visual indicator I can be wiggling wires a under the hood, or disconnecting connections, looking for the lamp to go out when I remove the short from the circuit...

P.S. I have used a buzzer for similar type of troubleshooting also where I can hear if I found a problem using the buzzer as an aid to hear if I found a problem...

There are many other tricks like this I use when troubleshooting.
Sometimes a lamp will work where a voltmeter will not to find a problem.
A lamp also work as a load, your voltmeter will not load a circuit, so you can have a bad switch in a circuit and your voltmeter will read voltage, but when you load the circuit with a lamp you will see the bad switch would not pass current through the bad switch's resistance...
 
Thanks Butcher
That is the best explanation I could ever ask for
I am really enjoying getting back into it and doing things right and safe.
Thanks to all on the GRF
 
FrugalRefiner said:
chrishawn said:
This charger wont even start a to charge unless hooked up to a battery. When I plug it in the volt light and amp light come on but not the charging light. When I touch them together nothing happens
:shock:
It's another safety feature. Many are now designed so they don't put out any power until there is a load applied. Computer power supplies are made the same way these days. If you pull a PC power supply and plug it in, you may see the fan move just a little, then stop. If you connect a load like a computer mother board or a light bulb, the power supply comes to life. Same with a lot of battery chargers. Now if you connect a light bulb to either one, it will run. If you short the leads while it's running you'll see a spark.

Dave
Simplifying it, modern PC power supplies require a start signal. This is pin 4 on the 20/24 pin motherboard connector, which is usually a green wire and if so it will be the only green wire. I've seen a few that are grey. Taking this wire down to 0V will start the power supply. Short it with any adjacent black wire. (I keep a specially bent paperclip for testing supplies without plugging them into anything, lest they destroy it.)
 

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