Beginning my research into modern 'alchemy'.

[Benjamin Samuel]

Hello Refiners,

Please allow me to introduce myself, my name is Benjamin and I have recently graduated from university with a Bachelor in Visual Arts with 1st class honours (don't mean to boast about that I'm just very proud of myself!)

My research area last year was in antiquated photographic technologies of the 19th century through to the early 20th century. This line of enquiry was sparked by a fascinating account of proto photographic history - the discovery of phosphorescence by the Alchemist C.A. Balduin in 1674. His experiment, in which he was the first person to produce calcium nitrate, paved the way for the eventual discovery of photography as it stimulated in the Alchemists a new interest into the phenomenon of light.

Through experimentation with chemistry, my artistic practice engages with the tangible aspects of image formation that I believe are void in the current mode of reproduction technology. For me it is very important to have my hands in the process of making photographic art. Consequently, like Balduin, I am open to new discoveries through the process of experimentation with matter. If you find this interesting, you are more than welcome to read my paper, please contact me if you would like a copy.

Upon completion of my research and the corresponding artwork, I was very fortunate to have been invited to a large exhibition of established artists from various countries in Australasia. It is an absolute dream to be exhibited in an institution of this calibre so soon and I feel very honoured indeed. It is a very important step in my career and I have set my sights high for the work that I aim to produce in the coming months.

To start, I hope to learn the process of reclamation of silver from used fixer and produce solid metal. From here I hope to "transmutate" (to use an alchemical term) this silver into silver nitrate from which I will make light sensitive photographic emulsions (film) to expose images onto. These will then be printed onto photographic paper that I will also make from that batch of silver nitrate. The process of emulsion making is an area that I am already versed in and I think it will be interesting to further deconstruct the process that I was researching last year.

Having no real understanding of chemistry, I have trepidations that this vision of mine is out of reach. I will persist however. What would really help me at this early stage though, are any opinions from those of you who are knowledgeable and have experience in this area, of how possible it is for me to achieve what I have set out to do in a matter of months. I really have no idea how difficult these processes are but I do know that the proper precautionary measures must be taken throughout any chemical process, I would not want to dabble in an area that is way beyond me so please do tell me if you think it is. Also, I am aware of the seriousness of the bi-product of adding nitric acid to silver so I will seek assistance from a professional chemist for the proper supervision and environment.

Thank you for taking the time to read my story. I hope you have enjoyed my introduction and if you have any insights at all please don't be shy.

I'm looking forward to this new area of research very much.

Benjamin

 

[Long Shot]

Welcome Benjamin. I am not sure I get what it is you're asking. If you just want to make your own photographic materials why do you not just buy the AgNO3? There is a fair bit of investment in time, material and equipment not to mention study of technique and acquiring scrap material to recover from.

 

[Benjamin Samuel]

Thanks for the welcoming words Long Shot!

I wasn't really asking anything in particular, just introducing myself because I will be using this forum to research this topic. It was more of a courtesy than anything, after all forums are such fantastic recourses and its owing to the people on them. So I guess it's kind of like a thank you, come to I think of it.

"If you just want to make your own photographic materials why do you not just buy the AgNO3?"

Yes that is a fair question, I suppose all I can answer with is "curiosity" perhaps. Aside from that, the exhibition is focused on the processes that people are carrying out that have generally been forgotten, I think that regathering the left over metal from the photographic process is interesting because it highlights what it is made of. I also think that the action of reclaiming is like a kind of like grabbing at the past - you are trying to make something of stuff that has been discarded, so this could be an interesting metaphor. Most people don't see photography the way they used to because it is so accessible now so they're generally quite intrigued when they are shown it in a new (old) light.

So sure, why bother make your own emulsion when you can buy it already? ...Why not just use film that's already perfectly engineered? ...Why use film at all when there is digital technology that far out performs its predecessor?

I suppose for me its about the journey as much as the destination, so I guess I see my life's work as a process of evolution, which is kind of ironic because I use obsolete methods!

Anyway thanks for your question, it made me think a bit about what's really behind my motivations, which is really important to have a clear notion of.

 

[Geo]

Welcome to our little forum. Please help your self to all the knowledge gathered here.

Just a friendly bit of advice, I'm not sure if you are being serious or just using it as a metaphor but the subject of alchemy is forbidden here. I can appreciate the use of the terminology in times past but in the modern day, alchemy is like fairy tales and myths and talking about it after being warned not to is grounds for banishment. Please don't think I am being harsh. I am just passing along some need to know information about the forum.

 

[solar_plasma]

Welcome Benjamin. I am not sure I get what it is you're asking. If you just want to make your own photographic materials why do you not just buy the AgNO3? There is a fair bit of investment in time, material and equipment not to mention study of technique and acquiring scrap material to recover from.

Silver nitrate is incredibly expensive compared to the contained silver. To prove what I knew before I just searched it: 25g 60€ or 4€ per gramm of silver! Well, this is kind of what the old alchemists have tried to do: making gold from dung. I stated before, this could be a business idea for many.

 

[Long Shot]

You're welcome Benjamin. Interesting perspective on your motivations and good on ya if that is what you want to do. The reason Geo has mentioned the warning about Alchemy is because it is akin to absolute nonsense in the context of this forum. I have not been here that long but have read a lot of posts where ridiculous (and sometimes downright false) claims were made in regards to processes, and sources of, PMs. People who persisted in that line of discussion, after being fairly warned, were banned.The people here take refining very seriously, as you should, and they do not want to reinforce any false pretentions (like what goes on with some of this YouTube stuff). Because it is a global community, and English is not universal, misinformation could be easily lead someone using translation programs into thinking sketchy information is true information. The wrong moves with nitric acid and certain other substances could put Angel wings on your backside. (Moderators, I hope I have this right, please correct me if I am wrong).

My remark about buying the silver nitrate was made with the understanding that you are going to do this for an exhibit. If your intention is long term and recovery from the products you use is the intention then yes, a decent pursuit. As suggested - there is plenty of material available here in regards to PM refining and much to do with silver. If, as you mentioned, you have qualified supervision available then that would be a good beginning after you brush up on what you are dealing with. Silver is quite cheap right now but, depending on where you live, HNO3 can be hard to acquire and not cheap. Best wishes on your pursuits!

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Welcome to the forum Benjamin. You may find making quality photographic paper more difficult than it sounds. Try to find a book called Silver: Economics, Metallurgy, and Use by Allison Butts and Charles D Coxe. It's an older book from 1967, but you'll learn a lot about silver. Watch for used copies. I think I got mine for $12.00.

Being a student of photography, I'm sure you're familiar with grain size. That's where it gets complicated. If you're not concerned with grain and quality, you can probably create an emulsion that will work, but for high quality work, you'll need to be able to control this.

Silver nitrate is just the beginning. You'll need to convert it to silver chloride and silver bromide to achieve what you want to do.

Butts and Coxe will just be a beginning, as there is only a small chapter devoted to photography use, but it will give you some idea and it's the only book I've personally read on the subject.

Good luck with your project.

Dave

 

[solar_plasma]

http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/DryPlate/Recipes/DryPlatePart2a.htm

Any more questions? 8)

https://www.google.de/search?q=phot...edr...0...1c.1.64.serp..0.17.1804.EefWg8eP6FI

When you look around in this scene, you will find a lot of artists, that use their own emulsions.

 

[METLMASHER]

OK I've seen several posts recently saying certain subjects are banned, however I thought the moderators had lifted the ban. Am I mistaken, or has that ban been lifted?

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/posting.php?mode=quote&f=62&p=229228

Had to read all of it, but yeah, ban lifted; Providing safety warnings, on every post about these subjects, is crucial.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

OK I've seen several posts recently saying certain subjects are banned, however I thought the moderators had lifted the ban. Am I mistaken, or has that ban been lifted?

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/posting.php?mode=quote&f=62&p=229228

Had to read all of it, but yeah, ban lifted; Providing safety warnings, on every post about these subjects, is crucial.

Yes the item's can be discussed.

 

[g_axelsson]

OK I've seen several posts recently saying certain subjects are banned, however I thought the moderators had lifted the ban. Am I mistaken, or has that ban been lifted?

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/posting.php?mode=quote&f=62&p=229228

Had to read all of it, but yeah, ban lifted; Providing safety warnings, on every post about these subjects, is crucial.

That's easy. I can discuss alchemy from a historical point of view all day long but when starting to promote it as a working method I would get banned.
Just remember that this is a refining forum and if I was only here to discuss alchemy I would probably be shown the door soon.

It's all about common sense, the rules are not written in stone and the moderators can and will use their judgement if a member is contributing or trying to stretch the rules for their own sake. We recently banned a gold buyer for spamming, as it became obvious after a couple of posts that his only interest was advertising his business and not being a part of our community. Each post in itself was not reason to banishment, but the collected number of posts and the general tone in them was enough proof for his intentions and out he went.

Don't let me scare you Benjamin, I'm all for discussing old procedures. For information about reclaiming silver from photographic wastes the information is all here and in Hoke's book.
But when it comes to the procedures for making new photographic chemicals and papers, maybe a photographic forum is better, or sciencemadness for the chemistry part.

Welcome to the forum!

Göran

 

[METLMASHER]

G. Axe., I think the other topics at least have some connection to refining. The discussion of alchemy though, not too much. I know you mods have the right of it. Keeps this forum valuable as a no nonsense place to learn and teach what is of benefit to all. Not for the discussion of theories not proven.

Original poster; no disrespect intended, and sorry if I hijacked your thread. Out.

Edit; Abbreviation removal.

 

[g_axelsson]

Since chemistry was born from alchemy when the area transformed into a science, many procedures predating the late 17'th century was once in the domain of alchemy. So from a historical view I don't see any wrong in discussing alchemy. But just as we stress the warnings to the dangerous procedures, we should explain old alchemy procedures in the light of modern chemistry to show what's really is happening.

A good example is the discovery of phosphorus in late 17'th century by the alchemist Hennig Brand as shown on this site. http://www.datatorch.com/science/scientists_stories.aspx?id=54
It goes on and describes what he did, why and then what really happened.

Personally, I would love to learn more about early refining methods and the history behind discoveries in refining. Maybe I should try to find some time to read my copy of de re metallica. :mrgreen:

Göran

 

[acpeacemaker]

Brand went through 5500 litres of urine....that's was interesting but the thought of playing with pee just grosses me out. I have four kids so I've got some stories.

I ended up having to read up some on Agricola. There is some interesting stuff in there. I'm not putting the man down but, I did get a kick out of some of the noted material. While rejecting a lot of superstitions some medicinal with rocks were listed in there. Agricola, noted ostreites (fossil oyster shell), moistened with water, "reduces inflammation of the breasts". So one thing I got from Berkeley out of this was a man that was considered to be the founder of geology, was a **** man. Just kidding

Cheers
Andrew