Best way to refine sterling?

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thesillym

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Feb 2, 2014
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6
I have at least 500oz of sterling that I have melted into flakes and chunks. It does have small amounts of lead and tin in it from broken out knife handles. What is the most economical and/or easiest way to refine the silver to .999 purity of this quantity? What methods do the large refiners use? I have access to nitric acid and power supplies for a cell. Thanks :)
 

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Hmm, tin could be a problem if there's too much in there. You'll get the devastaring METASTANNIC ACID goo that clogs up everything!!! It's going to really depend on how much tin is present.

You could do a 24-hour wash in HCl first to dissolve out the lead and tin, then wash SEVERAL times in HOT water to remove all remaining chloride before dissolving your silver with nitric.
 
Hmm, tin could be a problem if there's too much in there. You'll get the devastaring METASTANNIC ACID goo that clogs up everything!!! It's going to really depend on how much tin is present.

You could do a 24-hour wash in HCl first to dissolve out the lead and tin, then wash SEVERAL times in HOT water to remove all remaining chloride before dissolving your silver with nitric.
What concentration of HCl do you recommend?
 
There really was no need to melt the silver. For HCl, get it from Ace Hardware. It’s called Muriatic Acid and is used to clean concrete. After you give your silver a nice hot bath in HCl, rinse it THOROUGHLY with distilled water. Don’t introduce chlorine anywhere in your process or you’ll make silver chloride, which is NOT what you want. While you’re bathing your silver, go watch Sreetips on YouTube. He has a really good video demonstrating how he mechanically cleans his Sterling Silver prior to processing and several videos demonstrating how to recover and refine the silver from scrap to electrolytic silver cell. Pay careful attention to each step of the process, including waste treatment and disposal.
 
You could do a 24-hour wash in HCl first to dissolve out the lead and tin

After you give your silver a nice hot bath in HCl

Sorry guys but that is not going to work
I have melted into flakes and chunks.

Because he has already melted it the tin & lead are now alloyed with the silver therefore the HCl can no longer be effective in dissolving the tin/lead

The HCl leaching to remove tin/lead should have been done BEFORE melting - it is now a waste of time & acid as it will now remove VERY little (if any at all) of the tin/lead
then wash SEVERAL times in HOT water to remove all remaining chloride before dissolving your silver with nitric.

rinse it THOROUGHLY with distilled water

Although washing with D-water is certainly good advice doing so is not enough to get rid of the chlorides from HCl leaching

It MUST also go through an incineration process (put in a SS pan on a propane burner for heat from below as well as hit with a torch for heat from above - stirred & hit with the torch a couple more times) this insures that all traces of chloride are burned off before going to nitric

Trust me - I don't care how much you wash it (with D-water) there will still be traces of chlorides if you don't burn them off

Incineration (after washing) when switching from one acid to another was one of the first things I learned after joining this forum (from Harold_V) because you can NEVER get ALL the first acid washed out - especially when you are dealing with 500 ozt

If you don't burn off those traces of chloride (HCl) you will most certainly create "some" silver chloride when you go to nitric

But then - there is NO sense in even doing a HCl leach - now that the tin/lead is alloyed with the silver from melting

Kurt
 
I have at least 500oz of sterling that I have melted into flakes and chunks. It does have small amounts of lead and tin in it from broken out knife handles. What is the most economical and/or easiest way to refine the silver to .999 purity of this quantity? What methods do the large refiners use? I have access to nitric acid and power supplies for a cell. Thanks :)
I'd go for the lye and sugar method... I've never done anything close to that much at a time... but it purifies the silver to pretty close to .999
might take a lot of your supplies though
 
I have at least 500oz of sterling that I have melted into flakes and chunks. It does have small amounts of lead and tin in it from broken out knife handles. What is the most economical and/or easiest way to refine the silver to .999 purity of this quantity? What methods do the large refiners use? I have access to nitric acid and power supplies for a cell.

You have created a problem - you should have done a HCl leach on the silver to get rid of the tin/lead before melting

Then a GOOD washing to get rid of the vast majority of the HCl leach used to rid the tin/lead

Then incineration to rid the traces of chlorides

Then ether dissolve the sterling with nitric - cement with copper to up grade the 925 silver (sterling) to (plus/minus) 998 silver - then melt/pour anodes to run in the silver cell --- or - pour anodes as 925 (sterling) & run direct in cell --- when running 925 direct in the cell you ether have to make your electrolyte with MUCH more silver dissolved in it to prevent co-depositing of copper - or change out the electrolyte more often to prevent copper co-depositing

The third option is to dissolve the 925 in nitric (after removing tin/lead as above) then using the salt/lye/sugar process to get to your 999 silver

But you now have a problem because you did not get rid of the tin/lead BEFORE melting so you now have an alloy of silver/tin/lead

Tin & lead when alloyed with precious metals is what is known as "the refiners nightmare" - & that is because those metals like to follow along with the precious metals in the refining process

In other words - at least traces of the tin & lead like to stay with the precious metals - somewhere - in the refining process & become a real pain in the butt trying to get rid of them - meaning - somewhere in the process - you need to take extra steps to get rid of the tin/lead to get to you end goal of pure precious metals

In your situation you have several options

1) dissolve the sterling in nitric acid (50/50 nitric/D-water if the nitric is 67 - 70%) this will dissolve the silver & the lead - the tin will end up as metastannic acid which is an ultra fine paste like substance in a state of tin oxides - because the tin paste particles are ultra fine they don't like to settle well & they also tend to go through filters (at least traces) so you will likely end up with traces of tin in your silver/lead nitrate

You can the drop the lead out of your silver/lead nitrate by adding some sulfuric acid which will drop the lead out as lead sulfate which can then be filtered out & it does not take much sulfuric acid to drop out the lead - don't overdo the sulfuric acid --- you can then filter out the lead sulfate

Once the lead sulfate is filtered out you can then cement the silver out with copper & then melt/pour the cemented to anodes to run in your silver cell

The anodes will likely have traces of tin in them (because of tin problem as described above) but that is ok because when you run the silver anodes in the cell the tin will now stay behind in the anode slims

That is going to make processing the anode slims a real pain in the butt - but - the silver crystals that deposit on the cathode should be pure

2) run the sterling as sterling anodes direct in in the cell - this leaves all of the tin in the anode slims as well as most of the lead --- some of the lead will go into the electrolyte along with copper as the cell runs - but should not be a problem of co-depositing with the silver on the cathode - unless you run the cell long enough to also start co-depositing copper at the cathode (read my last post about running sterling direct in a cell)

Once you are done running the cell - you can then drop whatever lead went into the electrolyte in the same way as dropping out the lead in option (1) & the silver can then be recovered from the electrolyte

the problem with this option is that the anode slimes are going to have MUCH more tin in them as well as some lead - so processing the slims is going to be even more of a pain in the butt then processing the slimes in option (1)

3) dissolve the sterling with nitric - again you are going to end up with the tin paste - which again you can filter settle most of that out - you just wont get all of it due to poor settling/filtering problem

You can then drop the lead as before (sulfuric) - or - add salt or HCl to your silver/lead chloride - this will drop both the silver & the lead as their chlorides

Lead chloride dissolves in HOT water (silver chloride does not) so you can wash MOST (if not all) of the lead chloride out of silver chloride with LOTS of (multiple) HOT water washes

You can then convert the silver chloride to silver with the lye/sugar part of the silver chloride process & then melt the silver

The silver will likely have traces of tin & possibly "traces" of lead depending on how well you do with getting rid of the lead as described above (sulfuric - or hot water washes)

Because traces of tin are likely to follow the silver chloride you will likely have to still run this silver in the silver cell

The point being - that because you alloyed the silver with the tin & lead - the tin & the lead are now going to be a pain in the butt to get rid of "somewhere in the refining process

Your other option is to sell it direct to an actual refiner - as is --- The refiner I sell my silver to pays me the same price for silver whether it is refined silver - or not refined --- the only reason I refine "some" of my silver is because I have a "few" buyers that buy "small" amounts of some of my refined silver for a bit better price then the refiner I send most of my silver to

Kurt
 
I'd go for the lye and sugar method... I've never done anything close to that much at a time... but it purifies the silver to pretty close to .999
might take a lot of your supplies though

Read my last post - because he alloyed the silver with tin & lead he is going to have trouble with refining it now --- the includes the salt/lye/sugar process

Though the lead is somewhat of a problem - the tin is the real problem - the tin (at least traces) just like to follow along with the PMs - somewhere in the refining process

Can you get rid of it - yes - but it is a pain in the butt that requires extra steps

Kurt
 
Thanks for the replies, lots of great info. I own a coin/bullion store, so I buy sterling regularly. I had about 6 big totes of weighted candlesticks, knife handles, and such (weighed material removed). I usually ship this stuff to a refiner, but shipping large quantities is a pain in the a$$. So I melted a lot of it down to make shipping easier.

I’ve been watching sreetips and reading this forum for years, but have never actually attempted to refine anything. The main issue with bathing in HCl before melting is the space it takes up because of the large quantity. I’ve been looking for a mill of some sort to grind up everything, but have not found one yet that I consider affordable.

I do own a xrf, so that is how I know there is some tin and lead mixed with the sterling.
 
Thanks for the replies, lots of great info. I own a coin/bullion store, so I buy sterling regularly. I had about 6 big totes of weighted candlesticks, knife handles, and such (weighed material removed). I usually ship this stuff to a refiner, but shipping large quantities is a pain in the a$$. So I melted a lot of it down to make shipping easier.

I’ve been watching sreetips and reading this forum for years, but have never actually attempted to refine anything. The main issue with bathing in HCl before melting is the space it takes up because of the large quantity. I’ve been looking for a mill of some sort to grind up everything, but have not found one yet that I consider affordable.

I do own a xrf, so that is how I know there is some tin and lead mixed with the sterling.
Lead and Tin is common as fillers in knife handles and such.
So if you did not remove that before melting, you did not need a XRF to know it was there.

You do not need to treat all, just knife handles and candle holders and similar "hollow" items.
 
Lead and Tin is common as fillers in knife handles and such.
So if you did not remove that before melting, you did not need a XRF to know it was there.

You do not need to treat all, just knife handles and candle holders and similar "hollow" items.
I removed the vast majority of the fillers, but did not get them squeaky clean. The amount of lead and tin is minimal in the melted items. All of this melted stuff is hollow ware. I keep all the solid sterling separate.
 
Sorry guys but that is not going to work


Because he has already melted it the tin & lead are now alloyed with the silver therefore the HCl can no longer be effective in dissolving the tin/lead

The HCl leaching to remove tin/lead should have been done BEFORE melting - it is now a waste of time & acid as it will now remove VERY little (if any at all) of the tin/lead




Although washing with D-water is certainly good advice doing so is not enough to get rid of the chlorides from HCl leaching

It MUST also go through an incineration process (put in a SS pan on a propane burner for heat from below as well as hit with a torch for heat from above - stirred & hit with the torch a couple more times) this insures that all traces of chloride are burned off before going to nitric

Trust me - I don't care how much you wash it (with D-water) there will still be traces of chlorides if you don't burn them off

Incineration (after washing) when switching from one acid to another was one of the first things I learned after joining this forum (from Harold_V) because you can NEVER get ALL the first acid washed out - especially when you are dealing with 500 ozt

If you don't burn off those traces of chloride (HCl) you will most certainly create "some" silver chloride when you go to nitric

But then - there is NO sense in even doing a HCl leach - now that the tin/lead is alloyed with the silver from melting

Kurt
I was only thinking of the solid sterling with bits of solid lead and tin in it from the handle, not a melted mass with everything alloyed. If it's solid pieces, washing with hot water 3x gets rid of the chloride. Not if it's porous or sponge materials.
 
Absolutely right about the HCl bath after melting. No point in that. Duh! Lol. Normally, incineration should be the last thing to happen prior to dissolving. I figured he’d see that if he watched Sreetips. At any rate, I wouldn’t expect very much, if any tin, though a little lead is possible. At this point, I don’t really think there’s much choice but to go ahead and dissolve in distilled water and Nitric acid. Cementing on copper won’t drop lead or tin, so… problem solved.
 
Absolutely right about the HCl bath after melting. No point in that. Duh! Lol. Normally, incineration should be the last thing to happen prior to dissolving. I figured he’d see that if he watched Sreetips. At any rate, I wouldn’t expect very much, if any tin, though a little lead is possible. At this point, I don’t really think there’s much choice but to go ahead and dissolve in distilled water and Nitric acid. Cementing on copper won’t drop lead or tin, so… problem solved.
The lead wont' be an issue... initially. Lead nitrate is highly soluble. BUT, lead chloride is only sparingly soluble. Only about 1g will dissolve in 100ml of water. That means if there's a lot of lead, then using HCl to drop silver, WILL ALSO DROP LEAD CHLORIDE!

In the case where an unknown amount of lead is in the metal, might be best to cement the metal NITRATE solution with COPPER to pull out the silver. Lead will NOT reduce on copper.
 
The lead wont' be an issue... initially. Lead nitrate is highly soluble. BUT, lead chloride is only sparingly soluble. Only about 1g will dissolve in 100ml of water. That means if there's a lot of lead, then using HCl to drop silver, WILL ALSO DROP LEAD CHLORIDE!

In the case where an unknown amount of lead is in the metal, might be best to cement the metal NITRATE solution with COPPER to pull out the silver. Lead will NOT reduce on copper.
Or give it a splash of Sulfuric acid ;)
 
The lead wont' be an issue... initially. Lead nitrate is highly soluble. BUT, lead chloride is only sparingly soluble. Only about 1g will dissolve in 100ml of water. That means if there's a lot of lead, then using HCl to drop silver, WILL ALSO DROP LEAD CHLORIDE!

In the case where an unknown amount of lead is in the metal, might be best to cement the metal NITRATE solution with COPPER to pull out the silver. Lead will NOT reduce on copper.
Which is what I said. Cement the nitrate solution out on copper to drop the silver and leave all other metals above copper on the reactivity series in solution.
 
I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of anyone using sulphuric acid to precipitate lead, except prior to filtering AR before precipitating gold. At any rate, if the lead is in solution, it’s still easier and more efficient to cement on copper and leave the lead behind in solution.
 
I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of anyone using sulphuric acid to precipitate lead, except prior to filtering AR before precipitating gold. At any rate, if the lead is in solution, it’s still easier and more efficient to cement on copper and leave the lead behind in solution.
Same thing I guess, the Lead Sulphate will drop the Lead.
If one is cementing it is not necessary.
 
I have at least 500oz of sterling that I have melted into flakes and chunks. It does have small amounts of lead and tin in it from broken out knife handles. What is the most economical and/or easiest way to refine the silver to .999 purity of this quantity? What methods do the large refiners use? I have access to nitric acid and power supplies for a cell. Thanks :)
Simple way is ,

Dissolve all in 60% / 72% nitric and filter the solution (it will take time because of tin use PP cloth filter works better in this case)
Use copper to precipitate silver. (Before precipitation i use urea I know this is not good way to use urea in process)
And wash silver multiple times then melt it.

I follow this process and i got 999+ purity. And i never had problems because of lead.
 
I have at least 500oz of sterling that I have melted into flakes and chunks. It does have small amounts of lead and tin in it from broken out knife handles. What is the most economical and/or easiest way to refine the silver to .999 purity of this quantity? What methods do the large refiners use? I have access to nitric acid and power supplies for a cell. Thanks :)
Hi,

If you already melted the stuff and made flakes, i guess to avoid large quantities of metastannic and acid waste, I would recommend cupellation first and silver cell after. This way you will minimize the acid usage thus waste creation, and can get rid of the tin and lead as well.

Pete.
 
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