Cementing with copper
- Thread starter Jkoper
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Make your copper small enough to be completely submerged. This keeps the copper from building up at the top and falling back into your recovered metals. Tall and narrow with a small air pump on smaller amounts of solution. The faster it contacts the copper the faster your solution becomes depleted of the sought after metals.
I think a lower PH will help, but will let someone who understands that better explain it. I may be wrong as well. If your solution is to acidic, you can use up a lot of copper trying to keep some metals from going back into solution.
I think a lower PH will help, but will let someone who understands that better explain it. I may be wrong as well. If your solution is to acidic, you can use up a lot of copper trying to keep some metals from going back into solution.
What are you cementing? Testing with Stannous will indicate whether you have Gold, Platinum or Palladium still in solution.
Cheers Wal
Cheers Wal
The solution tests positive for silver. I have a precious metals testing drop that tests for all precious metals...its to help me I'm not sure what it is made out of?
I should mix me a batch of stannous and see the difference....does stannous cl go clear for silver too?
I should mix me a batch of stannous and see the difference....does stannous cl go clear for silver too?
How are you testing for silver in solution, are you adding NaCl or HCl or another chloride salt such as stannous chloride to a sample of your solution and looking for a milky reaction?
Please describe the test procedure and the chemicals used.
what test solution are you using?
Is it Schwerters solution, silver test solution, nitric acid, HNO3 potassium dichromate, K2Cr2O7... ?
Can you show us the MSDS of the testing reagent?
Are you using the reagent properly, are you determining the test results properly, will this reagent test for silver ions or is it made to test silver metals?
what is the solution you are trying to cement the metals out of, that you believe to hold silver and test for silver where did it come from? Is it a chloride sulfates nitrates, or other chemical-based solution, what processes formed it before now?
Without knowing what you have, or have done, or the procedure, I suspect something is haywire in the testing or solution...
Please describe the test procedure and the chemicals used.
what test solution are you using?
Is it Schwerters solution, silver test solution, nitric acid, HNO3 potassium dichromate, K2Cr2O7... ?
Can you show us the MSDS of the testing reagent?
Are you using the reagent properly, are you determining the test results properly, will this reagent test for silver ions or is it made to test silver metals?
what is the solution you are trying to cement the metals out of, that you believe to hold silver and test for silver where did it come from? Is it a chloride sulfates nitrates, or other chemical-based solution, what processes formed it before now?
Without knowing what you have, or have done, or the procedure, I suspect something is haywire in the testing or solution...
I'm testing with an all purpose solution testing droplet from ishor...
The solution is all purpose it has shown me orange/red from catalytic converters (which I have no precipitant)
Yellow/black for gold
And clears up for silver
The silver I believe is a huge chunk of ore...
I placed it in a bucket of acid hcl at the beginning of my research in how to do any of this and what I can say about this rock is a few things
1 it had a crystal shaped grey matter that tested hard as a diamond at first (I've since learned metals in ote will also fool a diamond tester as a diamond)
2. A metal detector detects this rock as metallic. (I'm going to test it in a mojito with a spectra v3 to hopefully help isolate the density I think silver goes upwards of 50-80 on the scale
3. That's all i have right now other than I have several solutions I'm trying to pull the metals out of it's my first go around and I've recconised some mistakes I've made and want to deal with these first....I wish I had an xrf gun that would help
The solution is all purpose it has shown me orange/red from catalytic converters (which I have no precipitant)
Yellow/black for gold
And clears up for silver
The silver I believe is a huge chunk of ore...
I placed it in a bucket of acid hcl at the beginning of my research in how to do any of this and what I can say about this rock is a few things
1 it had a crystal shaped grey matter that tested hard as a diamond at first (I've since learned metals in ote will also fool a diamond tester as a diamond)
2. A metal detector detects this rock as metallic. (I'm going to test it in a mojito with a spectra v3 to hopefully help isolate the density I think silver goes upwards of 50-80 on the scale
3. That's all i have right now other than I have several solutions I'm trying to pull the metals out of it's my first go around and I've recconised some mistakes I've made and want to deal with these first....I wish I had an xrf gun that would help
Oh and the metal I'm using I believe is a pure copper bussline that other larger copper lines can be bolted to it's very none porous I sanded the outside oxidation off of it and submerged it a whole ago...I ordered a heating pad that will raise the temp of the solution to 120 that should arrive in a day or two.
It's in a half gallon mason jar because I have broken a number of beakers I cant exactly boil it out I use borosilicate 3 glass?
Any recommendations of a better boiling beaker will take that advice too
It's in a half gallon mason jar because I have broken a number of beakers I cant exactly boil it out I use borosilicate 3 glass?
Any recommendations of a better boiling beaker will take that advice too
iShore products are normally just off the shelf common chemicals renamed and called proprietary so they do not have to disclose the ingredients on the MSDS only the dangers, they will not let people know what common chemicals they are selling as it would reveal the scam.
I am unsure of what you got from iShore, or whether it will work or be effective in the manner you are using it...
But if you do have silver ions in solution, salt NaCl or HCl (or some other chloride salt) would be better than anything you could buy from Inshore for testing for silver in the solution.
The silver I believe is a huge chunk of ore...
So you have no idea if the rock has silver, and you do not know what other metals it may contain such as arsenic, or what dangers this rock holds if acids were used on the rock.
That sounds like your not dealing with recovering silver but spending your time playing Russian roulette
You did not research this enough, the dangers and the fact HCl would be a terrible leach for silver ore,
Leaching silver from rock ore with HCl would be like expecting if you rubbed bear grease all over your body and you rolled downhill across those rocks you would pick up the silver like a magnet, that is if any is there.
IShore will probably sell you that special bear grease, if you ask them, but do not expect them to reveal what it really is, they will not tell you you can buy it at the local food mart...
You will not have silver (silver chloride AgCl), or silver ions in your solution containing HCl, a tiny tiny amount may form AgCl2 in some conditions but the amount of this will be very minute.
You are not going to cement silver out of a chloride solution using copper, the silver will not be in solution, silver chloride is insoluble...
Test a sample of your solution using a pinch of table salt, if it goes milky, you have possible silver or mercury in solution.
Do not put any more rock is acids until you do much much more research and also learn the dangers.
I am unsure of what you got from iShore, or whether it will work or be effective in the manner you are using it...
But if you do have silver ions in solution, salt NaCl or HCl (or some other chloride salt) would be better than anything you could buy from Inshore for testing for silver in the solution.
The silver I believe is a huge chunk of ore...
So you have no idea if the rock has silver, and you do not know what other metals it may contain such as arsenic, or what dangers this rock holds if acids were used on the rock.
That sounds like your not dealing with recovering silver but spending your time playing Russian roulette
You did not research this enough, the dangers and the fact HCl would be a terrible leach for silver ore,
Leaching silver from rock ore with HCl would be like expecting if you rubbed bear grease all over your body and you rolled downhill across those rocks you would pick up the silver like a magnet, that is if any is there.
IShore will probably sell you that special bear grease, if you ask them, but do not expect them to reveal what it really is, they will not tell you you can buy it at the local food mart...
You will not have silver (silver chloride AgCl), or silver ions in your solution containing HCl, a tiny tiny amount may form AgCl2 in some conditions but the amount of this will be very minute.
You are not going to cement silver out of a chloride solution using copper, the silver will not be in solution, silver chloride is insoluble...
Test a sample of your solution using a pinch of table salt, if it goes milky, you have possible silver or mercury in solution.
Do not put any more rock is acids until you do much much more research and also learn the dangers.
Hcl was an acid I used in it however I also had added some of that fumeing orange I made from kno3 and sulfuric.
What is the table salt method of testing...
If you want to answer what ot is I'll gladly read it and I'll do some more research now..
What is the table salt method of testing...
If you want to answer what ot is I'll gladly read it and I'll do some more research now..
Jkoper,
I do not know how much of what we are discussing is going over your head at this point?
This may make more sense to you after you do some more studying.
My guess is that Shor international sold you some stannous chloride solution that has a short shelf life without a known solution to test your solution you have no way of knowing it has past its shelf life and no longer effective to test for metals in solution...
You can make your own gold or precious metal testing solution, and learn to keep it fresh for a little longer shelf life...
If my guess is correct, your solution Stannous chloride SnCl2 will test for silver--if it has not converted to SnCl4 already which is no longer effective as a test solution.
Because stannous chloride will form silver chloride AgCl, although I find this a very poor test for silver, it may be helpful when testing for other metals and it can lead you to suspect silver from the reaction and do further testing...
NaCl salt sodium chloride, or HCl would give better results in a test (my opinion), than SnCl2, other chloride salts of metals like potassium chloride can be used but...
What is the table salt method of testing?
Not much to it, if you take a small sample, a small amount of your solution (that you may suspect contains silver ions) in a test tube, spot test dish, clear glass container...
Adding any chloride salt NaCl or HCl (SnCl2) KCl,... which provides Cl- ions chloride ions from the testing solution or reducing reagent.
The silver Ag+ ions in solution will share electrons with this newly added chloride Cl- ions to form an insoluble salt or compound which is visible as a milky solution at first and then clumps to form a heavier precipitate that will slowly settle (all of it can take days or longer to completely settle), these white fluffy powders stir up easy and settle very slowly (double edge sword sometimes very helpful and other time a big nuisance)...
We can test further to verify these salts are silver or to separate the silver salts from other metal salts.
Most all chloride salts are soluble with few exceptions (see solubility rules) silver and lead, (not considering mercury here in the discussion), although some may not be listed in the general solubility rules like Copper I chloride which has low solubility, we can find details on these from the Ksp solubility of the individual salts
https://www.not considering mercury here in the discussion)chm.uri.edu/weuler/chm112/refmater/KspTable.html
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk03w2F7s03opDowktRG8uGbtDWE6Ag%3A1587154415772&ei=7w2aXsnfLsvY-wTUiqD4BA&q=solubility+rules+metal+salts&oq=solubility+rules+metal+salts&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIICCEQFhAdEB46BAgAEEc6BwgjEOoCECc6BAgjECc6BQgAEJECOgQIABBDOgUIABCDAToCCAA6CAgAEIMBEJECOgYIABAWEB46BQgAEM0COgYIABANEB46CAgAEAgQDRAeSjIIFxIuMGcxOTJnMjQ3ZzI3MmcxMzNnMTEyZzg0Zzk3ZzY2ZzExOGcxMDNnMTExZzEzM0odCBgSGTBnMWcxZzFnMWcxZzFnMWcyZzFnNWc1ZzlQ-CxYoo8BYIWmAWgBcAF4AIABgwKIAeoakgEGNy4xOS4ymAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdperABCg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiJk5_5ovDoAhVL7J4KHVQFCE8Q4dUDCAw&uact=5
Note :also silver sulfate salt have a low solubility...
White salts of the chloride some of which you may encounter...
Sodium chloride NaCl (like table or sea salts) are very soluble in water soluble,or have a high solubilty in water) wash with water.
Lead chloride salts are mostly insouble in cold water, but become very soluble in water boiling hot.
So we can dissolve lead in a very hot water wash and let the wash solution we used cool (jar, sitting in snow or ice bath...) and most of the lead will settle, we can decant reheat and reuse this same wash water to dissolve more lead salt (from the silver chloride salts), reusing this wash keeps the volume of the toxic lead waste solution you generate lower...
Silver chloride is not soluble in water to much of any degree whether the water is freezing cold or boiling hot,
But silver chloride being so very light fluffy and hard or slow to settle---it can be an art or skill to heat the water enough to pick up as much lead salt as possible yet have the solution calm and quite and still enough to keep the silver chloride from floating around or stay settled as you decant the clear lead chloride wash from your silver salts...
the washed silver will darken to black (kinda looks ver dark purple to me), verifying silve chloride.
We could test further to verify silver but not much point to at this point.
I would not worry about adding chloride salt to test silver from a chloride solution the silver ain't there it is already formed a chloride
I do not know how much of what we are discussing is going over your head at this point?
This may make more sense to you after you do some more studying.
My guess is that Shor international sold you some stannous chloride solution that has a short shelf life without a known solution to test your solution you have no way of knowing it has past its shelf life and no longer effective to test for metals in solution...
You can make your own gold or precious metal testing solution, and learn to keep it fresh for a little longer shelf life...
If my guess is correct, your solution Stannous chloride SnCl2 will test for silver--if it has not converted to SnCl4 already which is no longer effective as a test solution.
Because stannous chloride will form silver chloride AgCl, although I find this a very poor test for silver, it may be helpful when testing for other metals and it can lead you to suspect silver from the reaction and do further testing...
NaCl salt sodium chloride, or HCl would give better results in a test (my opinion), than SnCl2, other chloride salts of metals like potassium chloride can be used but...
What is the table salt method of testing?
Not much to it, if you take a small sample, a small amount of your solution (that you may suspect contains silver ions) in a test tube, spot test dish, clear glass container...
Adding any chloride salt NaCl or HCl (SnCl2) KCl,... which provides Cl- ions chloride ions from the testing solution or reducing reagent.
The silver Ag+ ions in solution will share electrons with this newly added chloride Cl- ions to form an insoluble salt or compound which is visible as a milky solution at first and then clumps to form a heavier precipitate that will slowly settle (all of it can take days or longer to completely settle), these white fluffy powders stir up easy and settle very slowly (double edge sword sometimes very helpful and other time a big nuisance)...
We can test further to verify these salts are silver or to separate the silver salts from other metal salts.
Most all chloride salts are soluble with few exceptions (see solubility rules) silver and lead, (not considering mercury here in the discussion), although some may not be listed in the general solubility rules like Copper I chloride which has low solubility, we can find details on these from the Ksp solubility of the individual salts
https://www.not considering mercury here in the discussion)chm.uri.edu/weuler/chm112/refmater/KspTable.html
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk03w2F7s03opDowktRG8uGbtDWE6Ag%3A1587154415772&ei=7w2aXsnfLsvY-wTUiqD4BA&q=solubility+rules+metal+salts&oq=solubility+rules+metal+salts&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIICCEQFhAdEB46BAgAEEc6BwgjEOoCECc6BAgjECc6BQgAEJECOgQIABBDOgUIABCDAToCCAA6CAgAEIMBEJECOgYIABAWEB46BQgAEM0COgYIABANEB46CAgAEAgQDRAeSjIIFxIuMGcxOTJnMjQ3ZzI3MmcxMzNnMTEyZzg0Zzk3ZzY2ZzExOGcxMDNnMTExZzEzM0odCBgSGTBnMWcxZzFnMWcxZzFnMWcyZzFnNWc1ZzlQ-CxYoo8BYIWmAWgBcAF4AIABgwKIAeoakgEGNy4xOS4ymAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdperABCg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiJk5_5ovDoAhVL7J4KHVQFCE8Q4dUDCAw&uact=5
Note :also silver sulfate salt have a low solubility...
White salts of the chloride some of which you may encounter...
Sodium chloride NaCl (like table or sea salts) are very soluble in water soluble,or have a high solubilty in water) wash with water.
Lead chloride salts are mostly insouble in cold water, but become very soluble in water boiling hot.
So we can dissolve lead in a very hot water wash and let the wash solution we used cool (jar, sitting in snow or ice bath...) and most of the lead will settle, we can decant reheat and reuse this same wash water to dissolve more lead salt (from the silver chloride salts), reusing this wash keeps the volume of the toxic lead waste solution you generate lower...
Silver chloride is not soluble in water to much of any degree whether the water is freezing cold or boiling hot,
But silver chloride being so very light fluffy and hard or slow to settle---it can be an art or skill to heat the water enough to pick up as much lead salt as possible yet have the solution calm and quite and still enough to keep the silver chloride from floating around or stay settled as you decant the clear lead chloride wash from your silver salts...
the washed silver will darken to black (kinda looks ver dark purple to me), verifying silve chloride.
We could test further to verify silver but not much point to at this point.
I would not worry about adding chloride salt to test silver from a chloride solution the silver ain't there it is already formed a chloride
Damn butcher you have me on my toes...
I have to reread that last one....
Ok it's going to take a min I might need to take notes from there but you did hit the nail on the head. With the SnCl2 as one exception and you might know why.
If my ishor is sncl2 I guess it would also test for platinum and golds....never mind as I type I answer my own questions....
Except does the stannous turn clear or milk? Please answer that for me....because I'm seeing thru the liquid more than into a milky white. I'm definitely going from a deep green in volume / light green with 3 drops to a clear liquid (but I have not tested on a black surface?)
I'm understanding at least 80% of our talks here so I thank you again, but did I grasp that you believe I might have an excessive amount of lead in solution? I mean if I read that correctly it's totally possible as I am was very excited to do experiments and the scientific method of shrinking to as little amount of variables left me at the beginning.
Case an example I do have silver and lead mixed in a solution of nitric and hcl of unknown ratios what would you do next? (This solution almost surely has at best .03g of gold or less)
I have to reread that last one....
Ok it's going to take a min I might need to take notes from there but you did hit the nail on the head. With the SnCl2 as one exception and you might know why.
If my ishor is sncl2 I guess it would also test for platinum and golds....never mind as I type I answer my own questions....
Except does the stannous turn clear or milk? Please answer that for me....because I'm seeing thru the liquid more than into a milky white. I'm definitely going from a deep green in volume / light green with 3 drops to a clear liquid (but I have not tested on a black surface?)
I'm understanding at least 80% of our talks here so I thank you again, but did I grasp that you believe I might have an excessive amount of lead in solution? I mean if I read that correctly it's totally possible as I am was very excited to do experiments and the scientific method of shrinking to as little amount of variables left me at the beginning.
Case an example I do have silver and lead mixed in a solution of nitric and hcl of unknown ratios what would you do next? (This solution almost surely has at best .03g of gold or less)
And maybe I can ask about this reactivity of pb.
Referencing the periodic chart lead could then be made a tester? (Pbcl2?) For elements 104-112?
Xxxxi won't be but I'm attempting to grasp this chart?
My association is pb is a other metal....like tin is
Being below tin would that mean it would have to be pb(another acid2)
Thanks for the last comment excluding mercury with me because I believe I see cinnabar and metacinnabar on alot of my hikes and even free hg the other day so I appreciate the knowledge and although new to this one day with help maybe I can help save the enviroment!
Referencing the periodic chart lead could then be made a tester? (Pbcl2?) For elements 104-112?
Xxxxi won't be but I'm attempting to grasp this chart?
My association is pb is a other metal....like tin is
Being below tin would that mean it would have to be pb(another acid2)
Thanks for the last comment excluding mercury with me because I believe I see cinnabar and metacinnabar on alot of my hikes and even free hg the other day so I appreciate the knowledge and although new to this one day with help maybe I can help save the enviroment!
Jkoper said:
I think you're confusing a few things.
An element's position on the periodic table doesn't indicate its reactivity. Gold is below silver on the periodic table, but it wouldn't cement it out of solution or reduce it. I doubt you'll do much work with elements 104-112. They're all radioactive.
The reactivity series is a table of elements arranged from more reactive elements to less reactive elements. A more reactive element, in metallic form, will cement a less reactive element out of solution.
But those are cementation reactions. Stannous chloride (a salt of tin that is in solution) reduces gold in solution to a metallic colloid. The reaction creates a distinctly colored colloid. If you put metallic tin in the same solution, it would cement the gold out, but it would not create the distinctive purple of Cassius color.
I know it all gets very confusing. That's why we tell people to study, study, study.
Dave
Dave
Thanks? I am trying to study....I have studied so much I'm going crazy watching videos and reading....
Words like colloid I think was what you wrote piss me off hahaha because I dont know them right away....so after I reply I'll do a little more research.
I want to ask you a small quiz of what I think I know from what you wrote to me....stannous chloride you wrote in solution.....(that means in drops.....other wise you would not be calling it stannous chloride, correct i assume stannous is Latin or something for tin and chloride is, well chloride sncl)
Now that being said it's a salt as well (ok)
Sncl2 that would precipitate gold into colloid?
I am asking that as a question....(colloid I thought was a semi,buoyant element?)
As in "stuck in colloidal suspension" (meaning metals are basically floating in a unsoluable state...? I'm actually just now realizing this as I type this...so help me to understand. If it is unsoluable that's good but it is still stuck it needs to be a less dense fluid to then precipitate to the bottom or other means...maybe change the fluid to a less polar...and allow the elements to collect to help them to drop?
You also wrote something like I could add tin to cement it but i would lose the purple ...something...
If ide add the tin the sn would bond to the hcl makeing it stannous chloride and just going the way we spoke of above right? Some how i feel like I'm missing some atomic recipie here.....do you understand what I am asking?
Sorry and at the same time thanks
Jason k
I sure would enjoy a chat on the phone sometime to pick someone's brain at a faster speed if you or anyone might like to help thru a fast crash course
Thanks? I am trying to study....I have studied so much I'm going crazy watching videos and reading....
Words like colloid I think was what you wrote piss me off hahaha because I dont know them right away....so after I reply I'll do a little more research.
I want to ask you a small quiz of what I think I know from what you wrote to me....stannous chloride you wrote in solution.....(that means in drops.....other wise you would not be calling it stannous chloride, correct i assume stannous is Latin or something for tin and chloride is, well chloride sncl)
Now that being said it's a salt as well (ok)
Sncl2 that would precipitate gold into colloid?
I am asking that as a question....(colloid I thought was a semi,buoyant element?)
As in "stuck in colloidal suspension" (meaning metals are basically floating in a unsoluable state...? I'm actually just now realizing this as I type this...so help me to understand. If it is unsoluable that's good but it is still stuck it needs to be a less dense fluid to then precipitate to the bottom or other means...maybe change the fluid to a less polar...and allow the elements to collect to help them to drop?
You also wrote something like I could add tin to cement it but i would lose the purple ...something...
If ide add the tin the sn would bond to the hcl makeing it stannous chloride and just going the way we spoke of above right? Some how i feel like I'm missing some atomic recipie here.....do you understand what I am asking?
Sorry and at the same time thanks
Jason k
I sure would enjoy a chat on the phone sometime to pick someone's brain at a faster speed if you or anyone might like to help thru a fast crash course
