Cementing with copper

Gold Refining Forum

Help Support Gold Refining Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Jason,
Buddy, I wish I could help with the confusion, I know I felt it many times, especially in unfamiliar territory.
Much is spending enough time studying to learn the language and then spending time studying (many times the same materials but now with a better understanding) so that now you understand what was said in that language.
There is a very big hump or learning curve to overcome in the beginning, the good news is it gets easier to study and easier the more practice you get at studying and the more you can speak the language or even understand what is being said.

as children we need to hear and see the more we do the more we grow and the stronger we are at these skills.

stop, step back and relax you are a babe you have not even learned to crawl and here you are trying to run the marathon in a race, give yourself time read, enjoy, search, and find, soon before you know it you also will be talking the talk and walking the walk, no matter how hard the babe toys, or pushes himself, he only makes it harder to learn and confuses himself or where it begins harder to absorb and navigate or crawl through this new world, no matter how hard he struggles he is not ready for the marathon, but if babe just relaxes and sucks up the environment, exercises his efforts to his ability and what be happy of what he can crawl too he will soon be running a marathon, the babe who cannot and keeps struggling to run may never be able to walk or at least not well and if he does it may take him many more years to even learn to walk much less refine or run.


Take it easy the gold will not run away, it will be there when your ready, you will understand more and be able to do...

Look up colloids using butcher as an author, I have tried to explain them (maybe not as well as other sources, but that is the only one I can think of), it should at least clear some confusion.

Stannous chloride SnCl2 will not precipitate gold.

With SnCl2 the gold ions are reduced to metal atoms, but not to become a precipitate that settles out of solution as a metal brown or dirty black powder.


Sulfite, SMB, or some other reagents (chemicals) will form a gold precipitate, which is large heavy clumps of reduced gold atoms (gold ions changed from salt back to the metal atom, or a metal ion that got back its gold atoms )these reduced gold atoms joined together to make a small flake of powder, or a precipitate powder that falls to the bottom of the flask as an insoluble powder (precipitate).

clumps big enough to see, clumps that are heavy enough to settle as they can overcome gravity in the solution of salts and not have polarized charges that keep the gold atoms repelling each other like magnets pushing each other around charge to the atom that will, the stannous salt covert to a stannic salt tin salt SnCl4 which normally gives us headaches filtering and is a good place to lose gold (a story for another study altogether)
You will not see these tiny atoms of metallic gold as they repel each other and do not get in big enough clumps to be able to see (even with many of the special microscopes), or you cannot test for colloids in a solution as the tests require reducing the gold, they also will color a solution as the gold metal gold atoms swimming violently in the solution that will not settle the colloids (atoms of metal gold many many times smaller than the clumps of gold atoms that form from gold which forms the brown precipitate we can see with our naked eye reflected light coloring the solution violet or purple of Cassius.

Jason, it is difficult to explain these things and difficult to write books trying to especially if your no author or typist and...
It is difficult enough for a beginner to understand (look how may members we do this for thousands, and much is just repeated information so old hat it becomes very boring, as we tire we cannot explain as well in our tired state, and or leave out much information that may fill in the gaps.... as we could the first thousand times we wrote long posts trying to explain.

I do not think you're going to learn to run any faster by enrolling in a crash coarse but will at an easy steady pace in study

Trying to memorize or learn a whole book is daunting, trying to learn overnight what you could study for three lifetimes and not the understand the half of it, well ...
Taking a page at a time, a day at a time of leisure, and playing only where you know you can go or crawl safely, starting with a simple project to study with simple materials toys, experiencing the wonders around you soon my friend you will be running...
 
I'm wanting to set up experiments again. Ut first I want to deal with this noghtmare!

Could I do twinning? With an anode of silver and a cathode of stainless and get this first round cleaned up....I have a rectifier I just wish I had a little more direction because I have no legs to really stand on with beginning the recovery being that I was so careless at the beginning.....isnt there some idiot proof way of cleaning this up.....
 
Ahhh… So you just want a simple answer to your simple question. Take a look at this thread http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=21412.

Dave
 
Dave your not wrong and I understand your reluctance to hold my hand. Please know this
I'm a simple machine ship worker(ammonia is crazy and I know it)
I've recently been laid off and this is a passion to continue with this but I need help....
I'm happy to not be indoors assembling machines for someone who has enough money to play labor roulette with people's lives....your showing me you care about my safety....I did wonder into this site accidentally and I do have a both knowledge issue and material issue but safety is definitely being taken more serious now than at the beginning of my experiments....I guess most of us are idiots asking for help I kind of am but ide like to add I feel like if I cant get the help from youse guys I might fail for real in life with this....please help walk me thru this in a timely fashion not for the profits as I know I think I have somewhere but for the knowledge and help as much as the profits.....

Last bit of back ground of me I'll tell you and I hope I've earned this is I did get fired from my job but I also did work there 13+ solid years 40 hrs weekly not a no mc donalds job and I was a key player for over a decade where I climbed the ladder from 23k a year to 52k a year earning and saveing a 401k and so on and so forth. My point is I deserve this help so I feel....I'm trusting if led and dangerously trusting you won't blow me up....

I remember my learning curve (I'll tell ya a story) with ac DC as a kid
My father's cb radio which runs/ran on 12 sure popped the case when I hooked that split lamp wire to the terminals....and that is why I respect electricity....age 16? I'm almost 40 now and this is a language all in it's own I have a basic understanding of the words and wow Inman basic but it cant just be a hobby. I've been inspired in a time of depression to start this hobby into a business also inspired by the phase of go green. So come join me be my mentor and one day I may change the planet...I hope your not laughing if you are you aren't a hobbyist and I respect that but if your laughing I want to challenge you to something equally as challenging I'm recieving with the good request of keep studying....cut Knicks into your hands like your using them as a mechanic let's just try 1/8 small Knicks try 15....I mean it's that ridiculas but that's some of my challenges I've went thru as an assembly mechanic. (Dont really do that) but my point is I want you to consider the pain I've lived thru to get here...I'm rambling now and being insulatuve I think and It is not ment to be....as per stated above I understand the reluctancy to teach....for safety sake

Just consider this and hopefully I'll be considered worthy of accelerated help from everyone and anyone you could trust to help me!

Jason
 
There is a very simple reason why you aren’t getting the help you want or want to hear.
The problem with just telling you to do a-h in a set order is that if anything goes wrong which it very well may it takes so much time and explanations to get you on the right path again.
We can all sympathize with you dilemma and I’m sure you are not alone but you really need to read and study and stop experimenting with chemicals which you have no idea of the reactions to the materials you have, this sounds harsh but it really isn’t because if you keep blindly on your way you may well lose your values or possibly hurt yourself, much of what we do creates toxic gases and solutions and if you have no idea of these you really are putting yourself in harms way which no one here wants responsibility for.
To put this in perspective we have had a fair few chemistry major grads handed their butts here because they thought they knew it all only to discover theoretic chemistry and real world chemistry just don’t mix.
 
Jason,
I do not know what kind of work you do, but you spoke about electricity and radios.
I have studied both, I have built many small radios and have repaired quite a few (just as a hobby) it took years to learn and understand and thing changed over the years we went from tubes to transistors, to digital radio, and each of these although has similarity but also require extensive study to learn.

When I was around six I stuck a pair of tweezers into an electrical socket and was fascinated by the sparks, heat smoke and black spot on the wall, although it burnt my hand and others burnt my backside with a hickory switch, I was fascinated and wanted to learn more about the magic that came out of the wall.

Well, I am 63, have studied and worked with electricity my whole life, although I have several other trades I have studied and worked under for the jobs or work I have done, plumbing, HVAC air conditioning, electronics, mechanic gas and diesel, boiler operator, Pneumatic controls, hydraulics...

I learned to troubleshoot and repair most any machine, or electrical or mechanical device.

I am licensed as an electrician, boiler operator for both of these I did not need until late in my career companies began to require being licensed if you wished to keep your job, after working in these jobs most of my life and studying them and learning them on my own and working with them most of my life I had a good understanding of them, well long story short, the person running the electrical class asked me to teach the next class because I understood more of several of the principles of a subjet in electrical than he had.

The college asked me to teach the boiler class and tried to get me to for years after I gained my boiler license.

I learned what I did in electronics by studying it on my own as a hobby, I worked with several others who were schooled in electronics in the military and other schools and have had good carriers in the trade most of their life, almost all of these would come to me for help in some electronic problem because I had a better understanding and could troubleshoot problems better. I can only remember one man who was educated in school but he had a love and passion for it and studied it with a passion and worked hard to teach himself the skills, studied them intensely his whole life he was a medical x-ray tech.

Basically what I am trying to say is you really do not learn from a school, or from a teacher, sure you may get introduced into the field and may get a job and can do the work the employer requires and learn the skill in the trade good enough for the job.
For many it becomes a job, work, yes they learn it through working in the trade, but most do not learn it well, or get good at it because they do not really have the drive inside themselves to want to spend their time studying it their whole life, they are happy to replace all capacitors, all diodes, and if that did not work they would have to buy a new board, they could do the repair but they were not skilled, the person who learns from doing the hard work to educate himself is the one who truly understood and who was really good at the work they did.

I can help you get started if you wish to learn electronics or refining, but it would not work us typing all day to get one small point across, we would need to work together in the person getting our hands dirty, but even if we worked together for 20 years and you learned from me unless you studied it yourself along with what you picked up when we got our hands dirty you would never really understand it well or be good at it.
It takes a passion to want to know, the drive to work hard to teach yourself, and the discipline to study it on your own.

I am different than you in how I learn.
When you want to know what gold colloids are you ask someone to teach you about them and ask someone to teach you to explain them to you, to understand them.
At best you may get a brief description and a basic understanding if any. this may be good enough to get started but without you doing more study or work to learn more that's all you have is a simple understanding of basics.

When I did not know about gold colloids, I did not ask anyone a question about them, I have done extensive research on my own to find out anything about them I could, and if I could not find anything more I would still not give up my search for the answer, reading and searching more to find and study any source I can about colloids and am still doing it to this day If I find more information on the subject, learning is not just an introduction it is his lifelong study of the subject.

I am still studying to learn about more about that magic that came out of the wall when the eye tweezers melted, the firework sparks flew, and shorted the electrical socket out. and I could study it another three lifetimes and still not know everything about that magic.

Jason.
I spent over 15 years studying this, and I am still just scratching the surface of a basic understanding of it. and you expect me to put that in your head by writing a few posts and answering questions????????????????? cannot be done it is impossible my friend.

We can answer a few questions maybe point you in the right direction, but we cannot put these skills in your head or in your understanding.
If You wish to truly learn this chemistry or most any skill like electronics. you must get the blisters on your own hands, have your own passion, do your own work to learn, have the drive to study everything you can (or more than just an introduction, or brief description). and then work in the trade and continue the study relentlessly.
Jason,
if you wish to be spoon-fed it will not work (and you would not get it here), you will have to get your hands dirty to feed and learn to feed yourself, we can put the food in front of you but if you do not do the work you are the one who will be hungry, you will learn to use the spoon on your own, we can just introduce it to you the spoon and give you a few instructions...
Relax slow down put away the chemicals get a cold drink and Hoke's book, start with safety introduce yourself to a life-long study in it, then begin a study on something simple like gold foils memory fingers, or karat jewelry, study getting acquainted in Hoke's practice it, the general reaction (in general chat I believe), guide to the forum, welcome members, dealing with waste, and situations to avoid, getting gold pure and shining... and everything else you can.
Learning is easy when you have the passion and enjoy it, although it is very difficult to get started, because it is so vast and complicate (at least in the beginning).
But if you have the passion you will get over that hump and get going on your way to a lifetime of study and work to improve your skills.
I hope you understand I really want to help you. I lost a son that I named Jason.

Now stop typing, and get that drink, find a sunny spot to sit in the shade, listen to the birds and open your eyes and Hoke's book.
 
So your recommending set aside the solutions for a year or so and try again with a more pure gold to recreate an easier experiement? Man! I mean I want to do that but but I have so much here ide rather see what I've done I'm so close. Be honest with me because I understand your suggestion and I obviously cant argue but be honest with me....do you have the answer as to what to do to fix my problem solutions? Can you tell me is there a fool proof way to fix this if you had it in front of you? I dont expect to be soon fed the info bit it would help yes this is a language all in it's own but I have been studying this for almost everyday for 8 months, yes I used utube and I believe you did alot more reading than I have on this subject but I'm not saying you sont have enough knowledge. I'm simply wondering what your seeing in me that is makeing you not giveing me the easy answer...is it that complex that I'm not following the principals because I think I am getting what you are talking about. I really am. I have spent my entire 401k on this I'm almost broke I've got the cheapest labware but ive got everything I need I'm just afraid of makeing stuff worse. And some of the basics I understand are just uncommonly unique in this strange art. Maybe you can help indirectly with easier safer answers to some of the hard to search for research questions I have like....does gold ever just "rust" because rusting is oxidizing right? I grew up with some of this knowledge and it is fascinating. With this colloidal problem I'm haveing what is actually going on? Is it gelling? Why doesn't it drop can I add a bubbling gas system to it...oh I'm going from memory trying to impress you like can i bubble so2 into the solution to help it? To ungell?

I do have every intention on reading but i know reading is a filer to weed out the trouble for safety sake if youde like i can send more pictures of my notes I've made probablly 50 pages of notes up to date on videos and other paragraphs here and there....gels indent fully understand, salts fascinate me (always thinking back is a salt) but I assume a salt is a cl bond atomically.....I've learned a bit about voltac and galvonic cells that's some cool stuff assuming again any crystal is a metal atomically what's missing with this knowledge train? I can definitely appreciate your skill set and thanks for giveing me your age and skill set I do respect that. I wish I could be mentored under you as I can see the difference, hey I can test for diodes and caps too I'm certified in arc flash but I'm also a hard worker and hated hitting a 380 3 phase line. But that god punch just pushes me forward this direction because in the field today hustle is very much important or else canned by the man! That's why I'm wanting to learn this gold is just the easiest being the most dense I'm way deeper than that....man just help me out please

If trade secrets are important send me the skeleton key in private...I do see the importance of not sharing everything.... but I'm so stuck right now my brain literally hurts

Jason
 
Jason, you say you worked your way up the ladder in your last job. Well, if you want to learn this art, you have to work your way up here too.

I gave you a printable copy of Hoke's book. It looks like you printed it out, or had it printed. Have you read it? Do you understand what you read?

I tried to help you understand the differences between the periodic table and the reactivity series. I mentioned colloids. You're still confused. Have you looked those terms up? Have you tried the Glossary of Common Terms in the Library? Have you used the search at the top of the forum? Have you Googled what you don't understand?

You say you hope "you've earned" this and "deserve" the help. I try to help people who help themselves. You have to help yourself by studying to understand the help people have already given you.

You're trying to learn this because you're desperate. That is the worst possible motivation. It will lead you to rush, and make mistakes, and put yourself and those around you in harms way.

If you have any values in solution, you can cement them out.

Members have given you direction. You need to follow it.

Dave
 
There are no trade secrets here. What we have at the Gold Refining Forum is a collection of people, from all walks of life, who are either good at refining precious metals, or want to learn the same. Since you obviously do not know to recover, much less refine precious metals, you have been told, repeatedly, by people with much more experience than I, to put your toys away and learn. I wholeheartedly agree with that advice.

Here is what your plan should be right now. Put your solutions, chemicals, tools, labware, etc away. If you want to learn what your mess is, and how to fix it, you will have to start at the beginning, like all students.

Next, read Hoke. From front to back. All of it. No skipping sections for any reason. This will familiarize you with much of the terminology and some procedures. Read it again. This time take notes. Real notes on real paper. If you have questions, write them down. On real paper. Ask your questions here at GRF. Demonstrate that you are serious about doing it right, and you will get help.

Read it a third time. Now you should be ready to try the experiments she has put forth to help us learn how to do things right. With each experiment in Hoke you perform, write down what you observe. Take pictures. Print them out and write on them what they are pictures of. Leave no detail out.

When you get to this point, you should have an adequate understanding of the basics. While getting here, please keep in mind that our favorite primer was written quite some time ago. While the terminology is much the same, safety requirements and waste treatment are far different now. If any part of any procedure found in Hoke seems odd in any way, ask here.

The best thing I learned about recovery and refining procedures was something I learned long before I wanted to learn refining. That was how to produce a procedural flow chart. I have one for every procedure that is not hard wired to my stroke addled brain. With flow charts, that I continue to update, I do not have to remember how to do something. I have it written down. Consider doing the same.

Time for more coffee.
 
Jason,
Forget about learning to recover and refine to make money now, you will just waste time and lose gold and your money.
It is extremely hard to get any money from this kind of work and takes time to learn, and easy to lose money before you do, it is difficult to profit from it even if you are good at it, unless you already have a lot of money in deep pockets and you have a good source of scrap, chemical, and doing it on a large scale, even then there are risks...

Use the skills you have now to earn your bread and have it on your table, then you can spend the relaxing time it requires to learn these skills and maybe put more bread on your table...


My Hoke's book basically looks like a ragged old notebook, I have so many notes marked in the shoulders in it over the years, complete with an index for the notes... looks like a preacher's bible book it is so marked up and used...
 
Ok damn it I'm opening up the book....why cant this be as easy as when I was a kid
:roll:
 
Jkoper said:
Ok damn it I'm opening up the book....why cant this be as easy as when I was a kid
:roll:

Jason if it was easy everyone would be refiners of precious metals, the truth about this hobby / business is that it has two distinct parts, refining is easy to master if you have the right materials but to get the right materials from e scrap you need to learn to recover the values and that is very hard especially when you first start.
Reading Hoke will not give you a process for e scrap as it didn’t exist when it was written... but it will teach you the chemistry behind much of what you will need to know to succeed, read and understand what she teaches and certain things in the books will give you clues on how to approach recovery from e scrap, then read here on the processes that have been proved and tested which will help you reach your desired goal.
Good luck and keep at it, it isn’t easy as I pointed out earlier but you can do this.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top