Cheap home made scrubbing unit (theoretical design) _fumescrubber_

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So I've got the holes all drilled, and the support beams screwed in and sealed with gasket sealant. Will the sealant hold up in the scrubber? Also will duck tape hold in the fume hood? I've had to use it and sealant to hold up the intake on the fume hood (Had a couple mishaps). Thanks for all the help I hope to have it and running by Friday.
 
Johnnycat

I have used scrubbers that bubble the air through a reservoir and also ones that run it through a wet packed tower where there is more air to water interface. The real scrubbing is done when the fume comes into contact with the oxygen in the air and there is more available oxygen in air than in water.

You made a comparison earlier to a bong, well if the water was that good at absorbing the fume, nobody would know what a bong is because it would filter out the fume and not much of it would pass through. Apparently its not that effective because I know a lot of people who know what a bong is!

Water is good at cooling a fume off and providing a high humidity enviornment in the scrubber which favors the reaction to decompose the fume. I have posted a fume scrubber design in this section which uses a venturi to pump the air and fume into water and up through a packed tower. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=9115 The venturi actually causes a positive pressure in the scrubber to force the air through not suck it. My fear with what you are trying is that the negative pressure may implode your drum (cross bracing will help) but after all is said and done, the fume in water will not react as much of the fume as the fume in an air water interface provided by a packed tower.

I'm not saying what you've done will not work, the NOx you generate may be sufficiently small to allow effective scrubbing the way you are doing it, but the efficiency of a wet, bubble it through water design is limited. Remember a bong cools the smoke but allows it to pass through. Even when filled with Sangria!
 
4metals said:
I have used scrubbers that bubble the air through a reservoir and also ones that run it through a wet packed tower where there is more air to water interface. The real scrubbing is done when the fume comes into contact with the oxygen in the air and there is more available oxygen in air than in water.

Do you really mean that? How can oxygen do any scrubbing action? I thought that the scrubbing action was that gases is absorbed into the water phase and neutralized by chemicals added to the water.
We want to have as large area of water-air interface, as long dwelling time as possible and as narrow channels possible to get the best scrubbing action. Gas molecules moves randomly and we want them to hit the water before they pass through the scrubber.

/Göran
 
Thanks for getting back to me 4metals. I've got it assembled and have added a check valve to stop the water backing up into the down pipe. I'll try and load some pictures tonight. I'm thinking about adding a water pump and packing to the down pipe and possibly the exhaust stack. I'm going to add a couple more reinforcement 2x4's as well to better help with it collapsing. I may have another blower I can add to it but I'm not sure how I'll be able to do it yet with a venturi. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted.
 
Very interesting John.C. I like the idea of using a venturi. Also on some of the old mercury retorts they added an apron of cloth (like a lantern wick) which drew water up and helped solidify or cool the remaining mercury vapours. Again I like what you are doing and look forward to seeing your final design as I want to build one myself. Regards, donnybrook from down under.
 
NOx gas can actually be several different types of nitrogen compounds, and they would not act the same, nitrogen monoxide (NO) will not dissolve into water, but it can pick up an oxygen from the air and make nitrogen dioxide (NO2) which will dissolve easily into water forming HNO3, from this we can see we would need to react NO with air before we react it with water.
Nitrogen monoxide (NO) can be bubbled into a solution of H2O2 in which the oxygen in solution will react with the nitrogen monoxide and form nitrogen dioxide (NO2), which then will react with water in solution to form nitric acid (HNO3).

Gases need time to react with water, take a bubble of gas going through water, it can pass through the water so fast very little of the gas has time to react, also the size of the bubble can also make a difference of how much of the gas will react, other factors such as temperature can also make a difference of how it will react.

gases flowing in a very fine mist of water (or solution) can react easier than a large bubble of gas flowing quickly through a solution as the gas and water (surface area has more contact).

HCl is a gas it can dissolve easily into water and make HCL acid, Chlorine is also a gas that can dissolve into cold water, Hot water will not hold much gas, just as hot air holds less oxygen.

Neutralizing acidic gases can generate heat, gases do not absorb into a hot solution as easily as they would a cold solution, (the hot solution can force out gases).
 
4metals put it wonderfully into words. That was exactly the point i was trying to convey.

In closed systems, very little NO2 is produced once the oxygen is depleted in the reactor, hance the need to expose NO to air.
Though, NO will react with caustic solution just as NO2, the scrub time is the main issue still.

There are gasses that will dissolve completly when bubbled through just 4" of cold water, Ammonia and Hydrogen chloride for example.
Oxides of nitrogen do not.
 
Hey everyone, I'm not feeling 100% so I'll be short tonight. I just wanted to ask about the need for oxygen. When the fumes are pulled from the fume doesn't oxygen come with it? Would this make for a factor in how efficient the scrubber may be. Maybe even perhaps a ratio of air to gas that's most effective?
 
When you say if its sucked from the hood what do you mean? Where else would the fumes be sucked from? Are you referring to where the blower is mounted?
 
Although you get a lot of oxygen in the air exhausted by a fume hood, you get a lot of air dilution of the fumes at the same time. For each square foot of fume hood opening, it takes 100 cfm from a blower to exhaust the fumes. When you have, say, a 2' x 3' fume hood opening, you need 600 cfm of exhaust. The gas released in either the nitric or aqua regia reaction is NO. As butcher said, in order to scrub the NO, it first must be converted to NO2, which is scrubbed quickly. In a standard vertical scrubber, with packing and a sodium hydroxide spray at the top, the NO must be retained in the scrubber at least 8 seconds to be oxidized to NO2. With 6 ft2 of hood opening and open containers generating NO, the scrubber volume would have to be at least 600 x (8/60) = 80 ft3. That's equivalent to a 600 gallon tank. An example of a scrubber this size would be a cylindrical tank 3' in diameter, 11.3' tall.

Therefore, if you want to dissolve metals with nitric or AR in an open fume hood using open containers, you better have a big scrubber. The solution, of course, is to use a sealed dissolving unit with near-zero air dilution. That way, a tiny blower can be used and you would need a very small scrubber.

Another way is to have 2 or 3 scrubber columns, with the first column containing H2O2, which would oxidize the NO. To be able to dissolve in open containers, I've also thought about building a hood that could be sealed while dissolving and using glove-box type gloves.
 
Thanks GSP for those numbers.

An alternative to fume flowing through the fume hood from a reaction vessel, is to use distillation setup (refluxing) and several small scrubbers (series of jars) where the gases can mix with solutions before escaping into your fume hood.
 
My problem when thinking about scrubbers is that most of the refineries I worked in weren't dedicated to just simple stuff like jewelry scrap. They were large "job shop" refineries that accepted anything and everything coming in the door that could turn a profit. This came from many types of industries. They ran a lot of very large items that were difficult to fit into a reaction vessel and they couldn't afford to have dedicated equipment for each type of scrap. It was much more efficient and required less labor to run a lot this stuff in a variety of multi-purpose open containers than in a closed reaction vessel. When you run maybe 100s of different type material, with each requiring a little different cycle and play-it-by-ear chemical additions, a more fixed process done in a closed reaction vessel often doesn't work that well. Therefore, these companies all had huge fume scrubbers that could handle multiple fume hoods, Pfaudler kettles, etc., etc. At one place, one of the scrubbers was 20' tall and 6' in diameter, enough to handle 40 ft2 of fume hoods, kettles, or other exhaust openings. These giant scrubbers were, in essence, the cheapest way to go in the long run.

From the control tests and calculations I used to make on these scrubbers, the numbers I gave earlier for standard NaOH scrubbers assumed 100% efficiency where, in reality, 70% was closer to the mark.

Whether large or small, though, the same math applies.

With my limited knowledge in this, the only ways I can see to be able to use a smaller scrubber for a given amount of exhaust cfm is to (1) Oxidize the NO to NO2 before it gets to the NaOH scrubber, (2) Somehow, mechanically separate the NO from the air in the scrubber and retain it for a longer period of time, or (3) Use something other than NaOH. There may be other ways of doing these things that I'm not aware of. I would suggest that you listen to 4metals. He knows more about this stuff than anybody, especially for closed systems.
 
reactions With HNO2, sulfamic acid reacts to give N2, while with HNO3, it affords N2O.

HNO2 + H3NSO3 → H2SO4 + N2 + H2O
HNO3 + H3NSO3 → H2SO4 + N2O + H2O

nitrogen and laughing gas :twisted:
 
butcher said:
reactions With HNO2, sulfamic acid reacts to give N2, while with HNO3, it affords N2O.

HNO2 + H3NSO3 → H2SO4 + N2 + H2O
HNO3 + H3NSO3 → H2SO4 + N2O + H2O

nitrogen and laughing gas :twisted:

Does it react with NO? NO is the problem.
 
Peroxide is a strong oxidizer, it is metered in with a dosing pump controlled by measuring the ORP (oxidation reduction potential) measuring and controlling pH and ORP brings this equipment beyond the range (financially) of a hobbiest or small refiner.

It is possible to determine a quantity of nitric that can be neutralized by a dose of peroxide.
 
i dont understand where the post is going .in first we have this rule, 8 sec will be ok, doesnt the 8 sec rule aply to no or nox?

4metals said:
The important thing with fume scrubbing is to match up the cubic volume of the packed area with the airflow to maintain a contact time of 8 seconds. So a 1 cubic foot packed section will support up to a 7.5 CFM fan.

A big blower requires a lot of packed bed.

If you perform the reaction in a vessel that can be exhausted through the scrubber the flow can be quite small. A reaction vessel can be a 5 gallon pail with a lid on it and a 1" hole with tubing passing to the scrubber, 7.5 CFM will suffice for fume removal. 5 gallons is only 0.66 cubic feet so you will exhaust all of the air in the bucket 11.36 times a minute or every 5 1/2 seconds. You will likely need a vent hole to prevent implosion if the plastic gets warm and softens.

What are your pipe diameters and fan capacities Sam?

after rereading the gsp post about the 600 gal tank scruber ive understand...
 
4metals,

I know you stress the importance of a packed bed. What exactly does the packed bed accomplish? Does it simply separate and retain the NO in the scrubber for a longer period of time? Or, what?
 
So H2O2 oxidizes and neutralizes the fumes? And this may be a dumb question but could you just add H2O2 to the sodium hydroxide and water mix in the scrubber? Sorry if I'm coming off as that guy who just doesn't get it LOL. Not to say any of the information provided is contradicting, but it does seem that some things may be circumstantial to how your scrubber is designed.
 

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