Chemicals(particularly HCL).in Australia

[haddad0046]

Hello all!

Really thankful for this forum, has been very informative and many friendly members keen to share years of knowledge!

I have been facing hurdles from the start with regards to certain chemicals being available in Australia, but as I continue to grow/learn, these hurdles are becoming more problematic.

The main issue is my source for HCL. I have read a few posts which helped me identify it was the HCL causing issues, however was unable to find a solution/supplier. Essentially all store bought HCL in Australia contain a trace of titanium dioxide, which makes it impossible for me to make stannous chloride solution, as it instantly reacts with the titanium dioxide, turning purple.

Also, my AP solution starts blood red when H2O2 is added. Not sure how this would affect the base metal dissolution, however it seems to be fine for the most Part. I've been successfully reusing AP/CuCl2 and there doesn't appear to be any issues.

However, I cannot test if gold is in solution at any stage so I am essentially working blind.

I have tried so many different HCLs. Some MSDS says HCL (either 32% or 34.5%), water, and titanium dioxide (<1%), and some say HCL, water and 'secret' ingredients. All have the same effect when dissolving tin, or mixed with Hydrogen Peroxide.

These are (all 5L)

BUNNINGS:
Bondall - Pool Acid 32% (white bottle)
Bondall - muratic Acid 32% (black bottle)

MITRE 10:
Barracuda- Liquid Pool acid 32%

CLARKE RUBBER:
Filtrite liquid Pool acid 34.5% (white bottle)
Filtrite liquid Pool acid 34.5% (black bottle)

I cannot find another store bought HCL, and don't want to buy random items off the internet, and waste more $$. Hoping someone in Austrlaia has already figured it out and can point me to the right place to acquire HCL with impurities that don't affect gold refining, and allow me to make a batch of stannous chloride.

I don't think Austrlia has Nitric acid for sale in a store - was going to purchase off SSA website, but thought I would ask the question in case first!

Thanks all!

Matt

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hello all!

Really thankful for this forum, has been very informative and many friendly members keen to share years of knowledge!

I have been facing hurdles from the start with regards to certain chemicals being available in Australia, but as I continue to grow/learn, these hurdles are becoming more problematic.

The main issue is my source for HCL. I have read a few posts which helped me identify it was the HCL causing issues, however was unable to find a solution/supplier. Essentially all store bought HCL in Australia contain a trace of titanium dioxide, which makes it impossible for me to make stannous chloride solution, as it instantly reacts with the titanium dioxide, turning purple.

Also, my AP solution starts blood red when H2O2 is added. Not sure how this would affect the base metal dissolution, however it seems to be fine for the most Part. I've been successfully reusing AP/CuCl2 and there doesn't appear to be any issues.

However, I cannot test if gold is in solution at any stage so I am essentially working blind.

I have tried so many different HCLs. Some MSDS says HCL (either 32% or 34.5%), water, and titanium dioxide (<1%), and some say HCL, water and 'secret' ingredients. All have the same effect when dissolving tin, or mixed with Hydrogen Peroxide.

These are (all 5L)

BUNNINGS:
Bondall - Pool Acid 32% (white bottle)
Bondall - muratic Acid 32% (black bottle)

MITRE 10:
Barracuda- Liquid Pool acid 32%

CLARKE RUBBER:
Filtrite liquid Pool acid 34.5% (white bottle)
Filtrite liquid Pool acid 34.5% (black bottle)

I cannot find another store bought HCL, and don't want to buy random items off the internet, and waste more $$. Hoping someone in Austrlaia has already figured it out and can point me to the right place to acquire HCL with impurities that don't affect gold refining, and allow me to make a batch of stannous chloride.

I don't think Austrlia has Nitric acid for sale in a store - was going to purchase off SSA website, but thought I would ask the question in case first!

Thanks all!

Matt

Welcome to us.
I have never heard about the TiO₂ issue before.
So the Stannous becomes purple as you dissolve the Tin?

There is no need to use Peroxide for the AP, so that part should have no impact on the process.
Just add some green Copper (corroded) and start bubbling air through the liquid.

And as we ask all newcomer there is some study material for you.

1. Read C.M. Hokes book on refining jewelers scrap, it gives an easy introduction to the most important chemistry regarding refining.
It is free here on the forum: Screen Readable Copy of Hoke's Book
2. Then read the safety section of the forum: Safety
3. And then read about "Dealing with waste" in the forum: Dealing with Waste

Suggested reading: The Library

 

[Golddigger76]

Have you ever tried to order some stannous chloride and have it shipped to you ?
We have several members who are from Australia and would probably give you some good advice about where you can get the supplies you need.

 

[haddad0046]

Have you ever tried to order some stannous chloride and have it shipped to you ?
We have several members who are from Australia and would probably give you some good advice about where you can get the supplies you need.

Thank you all for the quick reply - really appreciated!

I did see stannous chloride powder & even solution available for purchase online, however, as the HCL itself returns a positive result (reaction turns the resultant solution dark purple), I feel it won't help with determining if gold is available in solution, as trace amounts of TiO2 are always present. So it will keep returning a positive result.

One member in the forum suggested to another member with the same issue to try dissolve Sn in Acetic acid (vinegar), with the assistance of heat and few mls of H2O2. I did try this months ago as a side test to isolate HCL as the issue, and it sort of worked - straight HCL from the bottle reacted with this vinegar solution and turned the clear solution dark orange, nearly red. (Same as adding H2O2 to the HCL). When testing a solution believed to contain gold, essentially the same thing occurred, only looked little more orange than red, but difficult to distinguish. Link to that thread here:

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/stannous-chloride-fail-turns-purple-before-use.20075/
Will try to upload some photos for reference later today.

@Yggdrasil -

Welcome to us.
I have never heard about the TiO₂ issue before.
So the Stannous becomes purple as you dissolve the Tin?

That is correct- solution almost immediately becomes purple as the tin begins to bubble and dissolve, and more saturated it becomes, the darker the purple.

There is no need to use Peroxide for the AP, so that part should have no impact on the process.
Just add some green Copper (corroded) and start bubbling air through the liquid.

Noted - thank you!

And as we ask all newcomer there is some study material for you.

1. Read C.M. Hokes book on refining jewelers scrap, it gives an easy introduction to the most important chemistry regarding refining.
It is free here on the forum: Screen Readable Copy of Hoke's Book
2. Then read the safety section of the forum: Safety
3. And then read about "Dealing with waste" in the forum: Dealing with Waste

Thank you - I have definitely had a read of this literature when starting a year or so ago, and continue to reference Hokes (fantastic read!) Have printed and binded a copy and have it on hand all the time, along guide on making the waste pot safe to discard! Great to have these resources available free of charge, has helped alot.

Thank you all. Would be good to find a solution to help me and my fellow Aussies who share this hobby! E-waste is abundant here, with many opportunities to regularly obtain scrap free of chare. however the process for hobbyist recovery is tricky without Nitric acid, ready access to borosilicate glassware (usually needs to be ordered online - especially in South Australia where i live) or the correct HCL.

Cheers

Matt

 

[Lino1406]

Red or orange by adding hydrogen peroxide, can result from presence of Br or I ions. Titanium not likely

 

[haddad0046]

Red or orange by adding hydrogen peroxide, can result from presence of Br or I ions. Titanium not likely

Thanks Lino,

Safety Data Sheets confirm presence of titanium for nearly every HCL available, with exception to one brand which says 'secret ingredients' could be any impurities. Attached are a couple examples of SDS for our main available products.

Agree that a number of impurities could result in the reaction, changing the colour.

However, regardless of which m element Causing the reaction, just wanted to reach out and see if someone in Australia has been successful with finding a brand of HCL that is better for the purposes of Gold recovey/refining and production of SnCl3.

Thank you!


SDS extracta:

 

[Yggdrasil]

Thanks Lino,

Safety Data Sheets confirm presence of titanium for nearly every HCL available, with exception to one brand which says 'secret ingredients' could be any impurities. Attached are a couple examples of SDS for our main available products.

Agree that a number of impurities could result in the reaction, changing the colour.

However, regardless of which m element Causing the reaction, just wanted to reach out and see if someone in Australia has been successful with finding a brand of HCL that is better for the purposes of Gold recovey/refining and production of SnCl3.

Thank you!


SDS extracta:

View attachment 56238





View attachment 56239

View attachment 56240

Watch out for your numbers, it is SnCl₂ not SnCl₃

 

[Deano]

Tech grade HCl is available in Adelaide from Ace Chemicals, cheapest in 20 litre containers.
Tech grade Nitric is available from them also but you have to go through a lot of hoops to purchase it, if you have no company affiliation it may be impossible to get.
Deano

 

[haddad0046]

Watch out for your numbers, it is SnCl₂ not SnCl₃

Apologies - just a typo, was meant to be SnCl2. Thanks for correcting.

Tech grade HCl is available in Adelaide from Ace Chemicals, cheapest in 20 litre containers.
Tech grade Nitric is available from them also but you have to go through a lot of hoops to purchase it, if you have no company affiliation it may be impossible to get.
Deano

Thanks Deano, that's great info!
I do recall contacting them about Nitric acid, and they mentioned it required affliation with an education facility or science type company. I am a services engineer which wasn't in line with their criteria, so it was a complicated process. I assumed it was the same for all chemicals there.
Will check if they are open over the Easter weekend and will update this thread on how I go,

Cheers!

 

[VK3NHL]

Hi & welcome.
I have been using HCL from both Bunnings & Mitre10 for my Stannous test solutions without the slightest problem.
What State are you in?
Cheers
Tony

 

[haddad0046]

Hi & welcome.
I have been using HCL from both Bunnings & Mitre10 for my Stannous test solutions without the slightest problem.
What State are you in?
Cheers
Tony

Thanks Tony,

I am in SA. How about yourself?

 

[AustAuScrap]

Hi, I am from South Oz too, I buy all my chemicals from legit chemical suppliers, basically they- any of the chemical suppliers in the good old Adelaide Yellow pages will provide what ever you want to buy at their price. For certain Acids and other chemicals they will require very solid ID as they do work in with SA Police, so until you are known you can expect a visit from both the SAPD and the Enviros/ EWS to check safe disposals of wastes etc. As a real fact I know of three electro-plating businesses that had visits and at least 1 big fine from stuff dumped into the sewer system and being followed back to the source.-- be very careful regards wastes in all populated areas in SA.

 

[louie55]

I had the same problem with Bondall from Bunnings, purple stannous. The forum told me about the titanium so I search and found Glendale Hydrochloric Acid 32% (MSD showed it was pure). I ordered online and now no purple stannous. Unfortunately I live in Sydney and ordered it locally but you may find a source closer to you.
Also, I got 5 litres of Nitric from Bosco chemicals in Queensland. The acid was cheap but postage bad, about $135 all up but no problems with ordering.
Good luck.

 

[lazersteve]

H2SO4 + 2NaCl --> 2HCl + Na2SO4

Concentrated H2SO4 sources include battery acid evaporated down to 1/3 volume and electrolysis of CuSO4 followed by evaporation all to easy to bypass HCl restrictions. Saturation is key to getting NaCl to precipitate when diluted or better yet bubbling HCl gas into water when dropwise adding concentrated H2SO4 to dry NaCl to produce HCl gas.

Steve

 

[haddad0046]

Hi, I am from South Oz too, I buy all my chemicals from legit chemical suppliers, basically they- any of the chemical suppliers in the good old Adelaide Yellow pages will provide what ever you want to buy at their price. For certain Acids and other chemicals they will require very solid ID as they do work in with SA Police, so until you are known you can expect a visit from both the SAPD and the Enviros/ EWS to check safe disposals of wastes etc. As a real fact I know of three electro-plating businesses that had visits and at least 1 big fine from stuff dumped into the sewer system and being followed back to the source.-- be very careful regards wastes in all populated areas in SA.

Thanks @AustAuScrap. I don't mind showing ID etc, I don't believe there is anything wrong with this hobby. Australia is tough on chemicals due to potential for manufacturing of illicit substances etc however from what I researched, none of these chemicals are illegal to purchase/own. Just monitored/regulated. And good on them for keeping on top of it! If there aren't any ill intentions, then there is no issues with going down the correct avenues, and I'm all for it!

I had the same problem with Bondall from Bunnings, purple stannous. The forum told me about the titanium so I search and found Glendale Hydrochloric Acid 32% (MSD showed it was pure). I ordered online and now no purple stannous. Unfortunately I live in Sydney and ordered it locally but you may find a source closer to you.
Also, I got 5 litres of Nitric from Bosco chemicals in Queensland. The acid was cheap but postage bad, about $135 all up but no problems with ordering.
Good luck.

Thanks Louie - it was a shame to find no HCL in SA that was suitable. They all had some form of impurity that turns the solution red when oxidiser added, and purple when any reducer is added. I found a chemical supplier that sells lab/tech grade HCL for about $35 for 5L as per Deano's suggestion. But due to Easter weekend, won't be able to pick it up till later in the week. Thanks for that - will have a look at Bosco chemicals. SSA (Science Supply Australia) also have Nitric Acid, just need to sign a declaration form. About $60 for 5L, plus $20 for postage and $30 for hazardous goods transport, so about $110. Quite similar!

H2SO4 + 2NaCl --> 2HCl + Na2SO4

Concentrated H2SO4 sources include battery acid evaporated down to 1/3 volume and electrolysis of CuSO4 followed by evaporation all to easy to bypass HCl restrictions. Saturation is key to getting NaCl to precipitate when diluted or better yet bubbling HCl gas into water when dropwise adding concentrated H2SO4 to dry NaCl to produce HCl gas.

Steve

Thanks Steve - good idea to make my own!

Sulfuric acid (and even sufates) are surprisingly hard to come by here also! No longer used in drain cleaners etc

No local stores (that I have found) even sell battery acid anymore - the closest we have is what they call 'battery conditioner fluid' which contains 'not more than 5% cadmium sulfate'. So it's just as much effort as ordering lab-grade HCL so defeats the purpose.
Just on that note - doesn't HCL give off pure HCL gas when heated? Couldn't I just slightly heat impure hcl and dissolve the gas in water with a drawback trap? Granted it won't be as concentrated (max at about 20%), but should be quite pure.

 

[doug]

G'day all,

Another Adelaidean here. I'm really just getting started on this recovery thing and am pretty much in the research phase so won't need volumes fo acids for a little while at least.

But I was wondering how @haddad0046 , @AustAuScrap (and @Deano ?? I think you are from SA too??) and anyone else from South Australia has gotten along obtaining Nitric Acid and Sulfuric Acid?

 

[Deano]

I am registered for use of all acids in SA, I get most of mine from Ace Chemicals.
I still have to sign a form each time I get Nitric acid but they have no interest in hydrochloric acid.
I do not use sulphuric acid so I cannot comment on that.
Deano

 

[doug]

I am registered for use of all acids in SA, I get most of mine from Ace Chemicals.
I still have to sign a form each time I get Nitric acid but they have no interest in hydrochloric acid.
I do not use sulphuric acid so I cannot comment on that.
Deano

Thanks @Deano ! Have you had any follow-up from SAPOL or environment agencies? If so can you give any guidance on what they were looking for? What we need to be prepared for??

 

[Deano]

I have had no contact from any government agencies, I suspect that they only show interest if complaints are made.
I know that like most water authorities world wide, SA Water carry out regular checks on sewage and drainage systems looking for industrial contaminants, not a good idea to dispose of waste that way anyhow.
Deano

 

[doug]

Yeah that makes sense - sounds like reason isn't totally gone in SA lol.
Down the drain, eh? I smirk every time I read that in Hoke. A different era that. I don't have my head around disposal properly yet... which, tbh, looks pretty interesting in it's own right. But I will be on to that soon.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience here!