Converting .925 Scrap Silver to shot for my Anode Basket

[cejohnsonsr1]

I am sorry but that simply just is not true

Going with the silver chloride - lye - sugar method there should be absolutely no reason why you can't turn out 999 &/or even 9999 silver at the end of the process --- it is just a matter of VERY COMPLETELY washing the acid out of chloride - as well as doing a very good job washing out the lye - & then washing out the sugar

It is all this washing that makes going the salt (or HCl) - lye - sugar method less desirable then cementing & then going to the silver cell (after melting/pouring cement silver to anodes for the cell)

Make no mistake about it - the salt/lye/sugar method can turn out very pure silver - at the end - it is just that all the washing is a pain in the butt - so is not well suited for LARGE batch processing - it however is not a bad option for "small" batch processing (a kilo or less) as the end result should be very pure (999 & even 9999) silver

On the other hand - the reason cement silver needs to go to the silver cell - is that there will always be "some" other metal contamination in the cement silver (primarily copper - maybe some Pd &/or Pt) & therefore needs to go to the cell for further refining

Cement silver should run - at the very least 98% silver to as good as 99.5% silver - depending on how you go about the cementing process in the first place & then of course how good of a job you do in washing the cement silver

The fact is that sterling (925 silver) can be run direct in the silver cell - the problem with that is that due to the high copper in the sterling causes the electrolyte to become corrupted with copper fairly quickly which then leads to co-depositing of copper with the silver - which is why some refiners choose to dissolve the sterling - then cement the silver - in order to up grade the silver from 925 to 98 or better - so that the electrolyte does not become corrupted as quickly & less chance of copper co-depositing with the silver

My point being - that in fact - you can turn out very pure silver with the salt/lye/sugar process - it is just that the 3 step process & all the washing makes it a not well suited process for LARGE batches - but is most certainly "an option" for small batches

Which is why LARGE batch processors choose to go the cement/cell process - or - run a two cell system - running sterling direct in the first cell - expecting "some" copper co-depositing (resulting in an up graded silver of 98% or better) which is then run in a second cell for purification

Kurt

No. I’ve laid out the reasons why at least 3 or 4 times recently. Nothing has changed. The best you can get from either process is 99-99%. The rest has to be removed via electrolytic cell. And this is not speculation. It’s well known fact, demonstrated many times. There are reasons to use the sugar and lye method, but the small scale and hobbyist refiner is unlikely to encounter them.

 

[cejohnsonsr1]

No. I’ve laid out the reasons why at least 3 or 4 times recently. Nothing has changed. The best you can get from either process is 99-99%. The rest has to be removed via electrolytic cell. And this is not speculation. It’s well known fact, demonstrated many times. There are reasons to use the sugar and lye method, but the small scale and hobbyist refiner is unlikely to encounter them.

That should have read 98-99. For some reason it won’t let me edit.

 

[BGDOCK]

Mr CeJohnsonsr1,
Can you share some of photos your experiments or refining successes please? Being such a subject mater expert you must have a million pictures.

 

[cejohnsonsr1]

Mr CeJohnsonsr1,
Can you share some of photos your experiments or refining successes please? Being such a subject mater expert you must have a million pictures.

No, actually I don’t. But I don’t need pictures to understand or explain some fairly basic concepts.

 

[BGDOCK]

Your a troll put up or shut up
I’m going to use an xrf machine on cemented silver and sugar lye
I can process with sugar lye faster than cementing out with better quality

 

[kurtak]

No. I’ve laid out the reasons why at least 3 or 4 times recently. Nothing has changed. The best you can get from either process is 98-99%.

Then you need to explain to me - how - when I first started refining - & before I set up my first silver cell & was using the salt/lye sugar process - I was able to sell & be paid out for 999 silver from doing the salt/lye/sugar process

I am not talking about doing just a few ozt by this method ether but am in fact talking about doing kilos of silver by this method (before setting up a cell)

Some of those batches even had lead chloride in them - which I was able to COMPLETELY wash out

No. I’ve laid out the reasons why at least 3 or 4 times recently.

Just because you have an opinion about this & have posted about it here - does not make it true

Kurt

 

[4metals]

The best you can get from either process is 98-99%. The rest has to be removed via electrolytic cell

It is not the best at 98-98% you can get 3nines plus but it requires a lot of steps and rinses. Most refiners who have to send out their Silver for refining are happy with 98% so they skip on the rinsing because it requires a lot of rinse water, generating waste. They do that as a business decision not because they cannot get high purity.

Please link us to your posts where these reasons are laid out. I would like to read them.

 

[kurtak]

you can get 3nines plus but it requires a lot of steps and rinses

because it requires a lot of rinse water, generating waste

Per the bold print - Correct - In fact it was you & GSP - & Harold_V that taught me this FACT when I first joined the forum & first started refining

But - yes - it "requires" A LOT - of washing

In fact - it can even be done when your AgCl is contaminated with lead chloride - BUT - it "requires" A LOT of washing with HOT water

Which is of course why I eventually (after 6 - 8 months) went to cementing silver & running a cell

But in that first 6 -8 months I in fact turned out several kilos of 999 silver - it least that is what the buyers XRF said it was - & that is what he paid me out on --- & because his XRF told him it was 999 he paid me $1 over spot for my silver (he sold it for premium over what he paid me)

Kurt

 

[4metals]

In fact - it can even be done when your AgCl is contaminated with lead chloride - BUT - it "requires" A LOT of washing with HOT water

The down side to the lead chloride is you cannot detect it easily. So to be sure, you have to assume it is there and rinse accordingly.

Unless you live in a country with no environmental regulations, there is a “hidden” cost to taking the Silver Chloride to high purity using caustic and corn syrup.

 

[4metals]

I don't know if these strips will work on Silver Chloride to detect Lead Chloride but if they do work, it could save a lot of waste from the hot rinses to dissolve out the lead chloride.

Has anyone tried something like Amazon.com

 

[Anil]

You may get cement silver by reducing AgCl2 with non-galvanized Iron washers ( small iron round pieces with center hole in it - lots of it may be available in scrap). It's very quick and fast too. The contamination of Fe can be removed by dilute HCl wash followed by hot DM water wash. 99 + or better is guaranteed.

 

[cejohnsonsr1]

It is not the best at 98-98% you can get 3nines plus but it requires a lot of steps and rinses. Most refiners who have to send out their Silver for refining are happy with 98% so they skip on the rinsing because it requires a lot of rinse water, generating waste. They do that as a business decision not because they cannot get high purity.

Please link us to your posts where these reasons are laid out. I would like to read them.

You should be able to just search for my recent comments. I know I’ve explained it at least twice in the last month or so.

 

[kurtak]

The down side to the lead chloride is you cannot detect it easily

I don't know if these strips will work on Silver Chloride to detect Lead Chloride

I don't know if those test strips will work on PbCl ether - however - it is actually quite easy to tell if you have PbCl & for that matter CdCl (cadmium chloride) in your silver chloride

Salt (or any chloide) will precipitate AgCl, PbCl & CdCl & all three of those chlorides look very much the same (the white "cottage cheese" like precipitate) however -------

AgCl will photo grey when exposed to light (turn purple/black) whereas light has no effect on PbCl & CdCl (remains white when exposed to light

Therefore - to test if you have PbCl &/or CdCl in your AgCl you can put some of the chloride(s) in a beaker & expose it to direct sun light & the sun light will photo grey the AgCl but not the PbCl &/or CdCl

So - if after exposing the chloride(s) to sun light - if you see white spots/clumps on the side walls of the beaker you can be quite sure you have PbCl &/or CdCl in with your AgCl

Also - if you take a glass stir rod & push the white clumps against the beaker side walls they will act kind of like a goo that smears whereas the AgCl doesn't smear but breaks apart

Both PbCl & CdCl are highly soluble in HOT water - but - then precipitate back out when the water cools

So you can test for when you have all the Pb &/or CdCl washed out of the AgCl (after HOT water washes) by letting the washes cool to see if you get a precipitate (&/or the wash turns cloudy)

To speed up the "cooling test" you can put some of the wash in a 25 ml beaker or a test tube & put it in ice water (rather than waiting for the whole wash to cool)

When you see no more precipitate (&/or cloudy) upon cooling you know you have the PbCl &/or CdCl washed out - I always did 1 o 2 more HOT water washes just for assurance all the PbCl &/or CdCl was washed out --- & for what it is worth - HOT water also tends to do a better/quicker job at washing out the copper nitrate (&/or other metal nitrates)

The reason for that is that HOT water tends to cause the AgCl particles to "floc" together making for better/quicker settling of the AgCl & therefore quicker/better separation of the AgCl from the dissolved metal nitrates (makes decanting the washes quicker/better)

In other words - cold water washing (besides not getting rid of PbCl &/or CdCl) causes the AgCl particles to break into smaller particles that can stay suspended in the wash longer (so longer settling) & tend to want to pour off as you near the end of the decant - so the larger "floced" particles of hot washing allows you to pour off more of the wash as the larger heavier particles better stay in the bottom of your washing vessel when pour the wash off & because you can pour off more of the wash it will help to reduce the number of washes by 1 or 2

Also - a side note on the photo grey test - any light will cause AgCl to photo grey - but - the intensity of direct sun light causes it to happen MUCH quicker then other lighting

I believe it was Harold_V that that taught me all of this very shortly after I first joined the forum (like a couple months after joining) when I did a batch of contact points --- I asked why all my AgCl was not converting when doing the lye step (had white clumps after adding lye) turned out the white clumps where PbCl &/or CdCl - that washed out with HOT water

Bottom line here - you can ABSOLUTELY turn out 999 plus silver using the salt/lye/sugar method - it just a real pain in the butt that creates A LOT of wash waste - first just in washing the AgCl - then more washing out the lye - then even more washing out the sugar

And for what it is worth - some people do the lye & the sugar in one step (do both at the same time) that - IMO - is NOT a good idea - they should be done separately as two steps - if need be I can do another post as to why you should NOT do the lye & sugar together in one step

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

The best you can get from either process is 98-99%

I’ve laid out the reasons why at least 3 or 4 times recently.

Please link us to your posts where these reasons are laid out. I would like to read them.

4metals - here are to other threads where cejohnsonsr1 has posted that you can not possibly produces 999 (plus) silver with the salt/lye/sugar process

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/some-nitric-acid-questions.33470/#post-358426
in this thread he posted

The starting solution is silver nitrate and copper nitrate. Whether you cement on copper or convert to silver chloride, all of the copper nitrate is still present and mixed just as thoroughly with the silver. You still have to rinse the silver chloride the same as you would the cement silver and, like the cement silver, you’ll never get it all out

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threa...ilver-refining-please-help.31977/#post-339468
In this thread he posted

The contamination i was referring to is due to there being 2 metals in solution at the same time. Cementation removes the silver from the solution, but in a muddy form where all the moisture in the mud is copper nitrate. You have to be very thorough in rinsing, but you’ll never get it all out. Same with silver chloride.

Saying that you can not possibly wash all the copper nitrate out of silver chloride is in actuality mis-information because you in fact can wash all the copper nitrate out of the silver chloride

I had considered posting that this was mis-information in those two threads as well but just didn't really have time

So it was when he posted this mis-information for the third time in this thread that I decided this mis-information needed to come to an end as it is leading to members believing something to be true when in fact it is not true

cejohnsonsr1 - please understand that I am not picking on you - I am sure that what you have posted you actually believe to be true - but the fact is that it is not true - & all I am trying to do is help you understand that what you believe is true is in fact not true (& therefore mis-information)

Here is another fact - the truth is that even with cement silver - you can ABSOLUTELY wash out ALL of the silver nitrate

Just like with silver chloride ALL of the copper nitrate can be washed out of cement silver - they both require A LOT of washing to get all the copper nitrate out - & that is because the copper nitrate is copper dissolved in solution - so it is just a matter of washing all of the copper solution out - whether it is silver chloride - or silver cement --- it is really no different then washing all the chem out of gold sponge after dropping gold from solution

With cement silver - the reason you will get at least "some" (trace) copper contamination in with silver cement is because there will almost always be some (actual) copper &/or copper oxide that flakes of the copper & mixes in with the silver

These small traces of copper &/or copper oxide are not water soluble & therefore will not wash out like the copper nitrate does - therefore it is the "bits" of copper &/or copper oxide that ends up contaminating the cement silver with "traces" of copper when you melt the silver

Another way to look at it - is that if washing copper nitrate out of solids was actually a problem - then you would never be able to wash all the copper nitrate out of your silver crystals from the silver cell

Now then - for what it is worth - you can actually cement silver with copper & have that silver cement come out as 999 plus silver --- there is a bit of a trick to doing this & if you care to learn how that is done I will be more then glad to post about how it is done

Kurt

 

[command2001]

Kurt: Please do post how to cement silver with coper and have that silver cement come out 999.

Allen

 

[Yggdrasil]

Kurt: Please do post how to cement silver with coper and have that silver cement come out 999.

Allen

Kurt tells it quite clearly, cement it and wash/rinse it until the rinse water is clean from Copper.
This will take many rinses, when you take into account 4Metals description of spin drying it.
Not much more is needed.
A check of the last rinse with Ammonia will make sure there is no more Copper present.

 

[4metals]

Kurt: Please do post how to cement silver with coper and have that silver cement come out 999.

I am not Kurt and I would like to know his technique as well. A few things first. As Copper has the ability to drop Gold, Silver, Platinum, Palladium, and a few other more rare PM's (and mercury) you have to be sure your feed has only Silver. The reason purity suffers from cementation is from excess copper added to the reaction. The cementation process will consume copper (put it into solution) as long as there is Silver available to take out of solution and if your solution with those last few Silver ions comes into contact with Copper. So purity suffers from 2 possible things, one is a pile of cemented Silver sitting on the bottom and surrounded with electrolyte that contains some remaining Silver but is trapped and cannot circulate effectively, and two, just adding too much Copper.

In a solution as concentrated as a Silver cell electrolyte, there can be ounces per gallon of Silver to be cemented. I prefer to add a slab of copper which is pretty smooth so it has no ridges or grooves to trap any cement Silver and when the reaction slows, meaning it is still displacing Silver but at a reduced rate, remove the copper slab. You have not recovered all of the Silver yet but you have the lions share. Next filter and rinse the cemented Silver. Rinse it well, mix it and rinse some more. This Silver will be about as pure as you will get it. And I have seen 999+ this way. The rest of the solution can now be cemented by adding the copper and mixing the solution for a few hours to assure complete contact between the Copper and the Silver in solution. This Silver, the second drop, is less pure because of the potential of excess copper in solution and it is simply held and processed with the next batch of electrolyte you are cementing.

One way of judging just how effectively the cementation is proceeding is to have a length of solid copper wire and some steel wool. Polish the end of the wire so it shines with the steel wool. If you dip the copper wire in the electrolyte when the reaction is at peak, you will see how quickly it accumulates. Every time you re-dip the wire it needs to be polished with the wool. When you think it's time to stop, dip in the polished wire and when it discolors slightly it's time to pull the big slab. This is a modification of Harold's end of reaction test when you have no stannous chloride, but it is quite effective on Silver Nitrate.

I would still like to hear Kurts process.

 

[JimEarns]

And for what it is worth - some people do the lye & the sugar in one step (do both at the same time) that - IMO - is NOT a good idea - they should be done separately as two steps - if need be I can do another post as to why you should NOT do the lye & sugar together in one step

Kurt

Hey Kurt, curious as to why it’s not advisable to skip washes in between the lye and sugar conversions. I have done it both ways, with washes in between and without washes after converting to silver oxide then going straight to adding sugar to get the elemental silver. I will say the amount of heat generated is higher with skipping the wash after the lye conversion. Thanks in advance.

 

[cejohnsonsr1]

Your a troll put up or shut up
I’m going to use an xrf machine on cemented silver and sugar lye
I can process with sugar lye faster than cementing out with better quality

It’s your time and your money. Waste it any way you like.

 

[JimEarns]

I don't know if those test strips will work on PbCl ether - however - it is actually quite easy to tell if you have PbCl & for that matter CdCl (cadmium chloride) in your silver chloride

Salt (or any chloide) will precipitate AgCl, PbCl & CdCl & all three of those chlorides look very much the same (the white "cottage cheese" like precipitate) however -------

AgCl will photo grey when exposed to light (turn purple/black) whereas light has no effect on PbCl & CdCl (remains white when exposed to light

Therefore - to test if you have PbCl &/or CdCl in your AgCl you can put some of the chloride(s) in a beaker & expose it to direct sun light & the sun light will photo grey the AgCl but not the PbCl &/or CdCl

So - if after exposing the chloride(s) to sun light - if you see white spots/clumps on the side walls of the beaker you can be quite sure you have PbCl &/or CdCl in with your AgCl

Also - if you take a glass stir rod & push the white clumps against the beaker side walls they will act kind of like a goo that smears whereas the AgCl doesn't smear but breaks apart

Both PbCl & CdCl are highly soluble in HOT water - but - then precipitate back out when the water cools

So you can test for when you have all the Pb &/or CdCl washed out of the AgCl (after HOT water washes) by letting the washes cool to see if you get a precipitate (&/or the wash turns cloudy)

To speed up the "cooling test" you can put some of the wash in a 25 ml beaker or a test tube & put it in ice water (rather than waiting for the whole wash to cool)

When you see no more precipitate (&/or cloudy) upon cooling you know you have the PbCl &/or CdCl washed out - I always did 1 o 2 more HOT water washes just for assurance all the PbCl &/or CdCl was washed out --- & for what it is worth - HOT water also tends to do a better/quicker job at washing out the copper nitrate (&/or other metal nitrates)

The reason for that is that HOT water tends to cause the AgCl particles to "floc" together making for better/quicker settling of the AgCl & therefore quicker/better separation of the AgCl from the dissolved metal nitrates (makes decanting the washes quicker/better)

In other words - cold water washing (besides not getting rid of PbCl &/or CdCl) causes the AgCl particles to break into smaller particles that can stay suspended in the wash longer (so longer settling) & tend to want to pour off as you near the end of the decant - so the larger "floced" particles of hot washing allows you to pour off more of the wash as the larger heavier particles better stay in the bottom of your washing vessel when pour the wash off & because you can pour off more of the wash it will help to reduce the number of washes by 1 or 2

Also - a side note on the photo grey test - any light will cause AgCl to photo grey - but - the intensity of direct sun light causes it to happen MUCH quicker then other lighting

I believe it was Harold_V that that taught me all of this very shortly after I first joined the forum (like a couple months after joining) when I did a batch of contact points --- I asked why all my AgCl was not converting when doing the lye step (had white clumps after adding lye) turned out the white clumps where PbCl &/or CdCl - that washed out with HOT water

Bottom line here - you can ABSOLUTELY turn out 999 plus silver using the salt/lye/sugar method - it just a real pain in the butt that creates A LOT of wash waste - first just in washing the AgCl - then more washing out the lye - then even more washing out the sugar

And for what it is worth - some people do the lye & the sugar in one step (do both at the same time) that - IMO - is NOT a good idea - they should be done separately as two steps - if need be I can do another post as to why you should NOT do the lye & sugar together in one step

Kurt

Hey Kurt, curious as to why it’s not advisable to do the sugar conversion immediately after the lye conversion without a wash in between the two. I have noticed the amount of heat generated is far greater when skipping that intermediate wash. Thanks in advance.